Creating "frameless" look by overcladding frames?

[markocosic]

We have inward opening windows (Basic uPVC in 'near black fake wood' finish)

 

We have a wooden roof and will have when clashing to match.

 

This was going to be our window detail:

 

(overcladding about 20 mm of the outer frame leaving perhaps 55 mm visible all round - the actual wall cladding is outboard of this 120-150 mm deep reveal)

 

 

We could also move this to cover "all" of the outer frame leaving just the inner part of the frame visible.

 

Anybody seen this done before? Does it look like a feature or a bodge? I can't picture it as it stands.

 

Thanks

[Jenki]

I think as long as the trims for your cladding, (header can give you a drip edge), (cill gives you run off and drip edge), and reveals can combine with these neatly, then would look great.

I am planning cladding my build, and this is the area that's keeping me awake.  

 

Its essential that the detailing for weatherproofing this area is robust, and if any water can get past this cladding isn't going to do any damage to the timber frame.

I'm still trying to get this detail to work in my head. I've not found any drawings that fit my scenario yet.

 

[craig]

8 hours ago, markocosic said:

Anybody seen this done before?

Pretty standard detail, just check with manufacturers and recommended install details just in case but you’ll be fine.

Edited October 4, 2021 by craig

[joth]

We did this, primarily to improve fitted U values in the PHPP model but also to make a more frameless appearance.

One thing I have since noticed is the asymmetry as we overclad the top and sides, but the bottom edge isn't due to the sill, so that looks chunkier than the other 3 sides. Not terribly obvious, but once you notice it you notice it.

[jack]

We did this on our build. 

 

A few comments:

• By bringing the cladding in, you lose some of the view, and potentially a bit of the light (the impact is greater for smaller windows). You certainly see more of the cladding than would otherwise be the case.
• You need to be sure that you can consistently terminate the cladding so that it's flush with the frame. At best, this will be a lot more effort to do well than just cladding around the frames in the more usual way. In our case, a lack of attention to detail by the cladding installers means we have several windows where the cladding (a mix of brick slips and larch) randomly leaves 5-15mm of frame visible. Not the end of the world, but it's certainly more effort to do this correctly than to just clad with the frame visible.

When I now look at other houses that have similar windows, I think I often prefer the frames being visible. Especially if they're dark, they provide a clean line that perhaps makes the whole thing look a little sharper. Up to you what look you prefer though. 

 

23 minutes ago, joth said:

One thing I have since noticed is the asymmetry as we overclad the top and sides, but the bottom edge isn't due to the sill, so that looks chunkier than the other 3 sides. Not terribly obvious, but once you notice it you notice it.

 

Agree with this.

[markocosic]

Thanks folks,

 

We're not worried too about water for the frames / house - it's water tight as is and the cladding is more for UV / mechanical protection.

 

Imagine this (incl metal sill pan under window frame with the frame weep holes into the metal pan) with the wood replaced by a membrane. That's the waterproof later.

 

 

The cladding then sits on top of that, spaced away with battens, that should deflect most water but doesn't need to be waterproof.

 

Sill detail is DEFINITELY going to match in terms of visible frame. Wooden sill floats above metal pan at the appropriate height too match the sides and top in terms of exposed frame. Metal pan drips between the membrane and the cladding. (i.e. not visible)

 

If it weren't for insects I'd be tempted to leave a gap between the (wooden) cladding and the (uPVC) frame to aid drying of the reveal cladding. With insects to consider a seal is probably in order. I like the JSH finish here.. With dark frame and wood it should disappear:

 

 

But perhaps sticking the angle the frame so that the wood can move without bringing the angle with it. (150 mm reveal could move +/-3 mm? )

 

Or just black foam strip and be done with unless/ until the insects cause trouble?

 

 

 

Accuracy and long term stability if shrinking the reveal is a valid concern. 0-15 mm you'd see. 40-55 mm you'd see less. Wood moves. It's never going to be "right" if done "frameless" is it? Best argument for not doing it?

 

We'll have a play. Probably they only way to really see if swmbo likes they look or not!

 

[gaz_moose]

how would you ever change the windows? 

[markocosic]

Screwdriver for window changes. I imagine that the UPVC frames will outlast the cladding immediately around the window anyhow.

 

 

Progress has been made:

 

 

 

 

 

Here's a tip for doing the bottom of board-on-board cladding.

 

You need blocking between the 'inner' boards to close off the gap to avoid insects making it their home. (the ventilation happens behind the horiontal battens and is closed off by a "U" of metal mesh between the face of the horizontal batten and the face of the house) Don't cut these to exact length. Cut them short and fit them on an angle to suit the (variable) gap between each board. This is fast and there's no danger of them ever over-expanding forcing things apart should they find themselves damp. Mainly it's fast.

 

 

 

Current window detail is this:

 

There's a little metal channel above each window to catch any water running down the membrane. Probably total overkill but given that the roof is also wooden and there's a non zero chance of a knot falling out etc we might get water running down that membrane. This will keep it from falling on the horizontal cladding board above the window. You can see some crumbs on the wall membrane from where it was only membrane on the roof/walls (with these little channels above the windows) for 6 months. It did help keep water away from the windows during this time.

 

Drip edge above is a 30 degree cut on the end of the boards. There'll be a horiontal board between the window frame and these to close the top of the reveal.

 

 

Either side of the window finishes as an "inner" board to make the detailing a little less painful. This will be trimmed to width in situ then a vertical board fits behind it and across to the frame as the sides of the reveal. Perhaps I'll trim them back more and have the "sides" os the reveal poke out beyond the cladding boards like JSH's horizontal cladding in the earlier post.

 

 

This is bottom of the reveal. A 'secondary sill' sits upder the window frame (frame drips are on the underside - this in hindsight was a mistake as it would be much easier to clean these and to seal frame<>sill if they were face mounted frame drips) and catches everything from the frame / window reveal tapes and dumps it outboard of the wall membrane but inboard of the cladding (i.e. anything getting in here disappears behind the cladding)

 

Over the top of this is going to be a wooden sill / step that's loadbearing, pretty, and mostly waterproof but doesn't need to be completely waterproof.

 

 

 

Now that my wife has an idea of what the finished item will look like (the outer boards still need all the screws putting in and their final coat of black rather than grey)...

 

...I think these are definitely not going to be frameless and it's all a bit RAL9005 at the moment.

 

It might even get a decorative reveal in a contrast colour. I'll leave this detail until the 11th hour so that she can decide. Perhaps post a few photos for her to choose between too...

 

 

Edited October 28, 2021 by markocosic

[markocosic]

White: (and poking out past cladding)

 

 

 

 

 

Dark: (but again reveals poking out past cladding)

 

 

 

 

I can't find dark examples where the reveals sit behind the cladding. Probably because it'd be a PITA to make and swapping out the occasional rotten reveal isn't a dealbreaker.