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3 Port Valve - Replace the whole thing or just the head? Videos included!

Oxbow16

By Oxbow16
in General Plumbing

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Oxbow16 Regular Member

Oxbow16

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Hi plumbers and DIYers

 

I made a post about my 3-port valve a couple of weeks ago, but have finally been able to take a look and thought best to start a new one than tag on.  Hope that's ok.

 

Recap: We've had a problem whereby our boiler will only heat the radiators, even when set to hot water only. Pretty certain the problem is with the three port valve.  

 

With the electricity off, I've removed the head and taken a video to show what happens internally when I move the lever. As you'll see, it slips and clunks. Does that mean that the gears are knackered or is it something else completely? Is it fixable or time for a replacement?  Or is it normal?  Must say the vids I saw had smooth looking mechanisms... 

 

If it is time to replace the head, should I just do that or do the whole unit? The spindle moves quite freely by hand, as per the third video. It only moves from say 12 to 1 one o clock, but I think that's the normal range isn't it? Is there any other way of telling what condition the T pipe piece is in?

 

Money is really tight, and if just the head needs replacing I'd be confident doing that myself plus the part would be a bit cheaper.

 

But in a few weeks we are having plumbing work done in the house which will involve a drain down. So if it is a much better idea to change the whole thing then that would be the time to do it, and I'd bite the bullet on the extra £££.

 

Hopefully the videos can help shed some light:

 

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1uDVtF8t8_L7f5pekzgGtGM89wzy4q7nN?usp=sharing

 

Much appreciate any replies :)

 

Cheers

 

PS - Hollywood here I come!

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Oxbow16 Regular Member

Oxbow16

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Hi @joe90

 

That's a shame that the vids won't work?  You don't know what you're missing!  I wonder if they would work on any Apple devices?  

 

12 minutes ago, joe90 said:

1/With the head off can you turn the shaft out of the valve?

 

Do you mean the little bit sticking up on the metal plate, that goes into the bottom of the head unit?  If so, then yes - I can turn it reasonably easily with my fingers.  There's not much range of motion.  Maybe 5 minutes maximum on a clock face, but probably less.  

 

14 minutes ago, joe90 said:

2/ Can you determine which pipe gets hot by manually turning that valve?

 

I've stayed away from doing anything in there with the power on in case I do something stupid!  I'm also not sure how it works when the head is off.  Are you saying to keep the head off, turn the power on, call for water / heat, and then turn the valve into the two different positions to see if it diverts the heated water as it should?  

 

I think I can give that a go if that's what you're asking

 

Cheers

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joe90 Advanced Member

joe90

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5 minutes ago, Oxbow16 said:

I've stayed away from doing anything in there with the power on in case I do something stupid!  I'm also not sure how it works when the head is off.  Are you saying to keep the head off, turn the power on, call for water / heat, and then turn the valve into the two different positions to see if it diverts the heated water as it should?  

 

I think I can give that a go if that's what you're asking

Yes, just make it call for heat, does not matter  if it’s heating or DHW. just make sure you don’t touch the head, but with its cover on you should be ok anyway, report back……..

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ProDave Advanced Member

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If this is the Honeywell, you can't operate the head off the valve.  the head needs to be on the valve to centre the gear mechanism.  If you try and operate it off the valve it will not stay in place and the gears will disengage and appear to be faulty.

 

The spindle on the valve head should freely turn at least a quarter of a turn so I would say yours is stuck or partially stuck.

 

EDIT: Just viewed your videos.  the head looks fine.  The spindle of the valve body is not turning anywhere near enough.  You need to change the valve body and since you normally buy it as a complete unit use the new head that comes with it and keep your old valve head as a spare.

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Oxbow16 Regular Member

Oxbow16

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Well, that was just in the nick of time!  I was about to go and run through what Joe explained above.  It is indeed a Honeywell.  So does that mean Joe's experiment wouldn't work (mainly moving the spindle to see if it changes the valve)?  

 

4 minutes ago, ProDave said:

 

The spindle on the valve head should freely turn at least a quarter of a turn

 

Hmmm, no where near that amount.  Not sure why I chose to use a clock face when I could talk in degrees...  It's been a long day!!  So you're saying the spindle should turn 90 degrees?  I'd say mine is more like 25-35 degrees.

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ProDave Advanced Member

ProDave

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If you look at the bottom of the head when you manually move the lever, it turns a quarter of a turn.  That is how much the spindle on the valve needs to move freely.

 

Sometimes you can persuade a jammed spindle to move the full amount buy turning it with a pair if pliers or a spanner where you can apply more pressure than your fingers and keep working it backwards and forwards to see if it will free up and move further.

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joe90 Advanced Member

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12 hours ago, ProDave said:

If this is the Honeywell, you can't operate the head off the valve.  the head needs to be on the valve to centre the gear mechanism.  If you try and operate it off the valve it will not stay in place and the gears will disengage and appear to be faulty.

 

The spindle on the valve head should freely turn at least a quarter of a turn so I would say yours is stuck or partially stuck.

I have been thinking about this, I wonder if @ProDave is talking about the mid position three way valves rather than the diverter 3 way valves. I didn’t want to give duff  info as I have done this quite a few times myself in the past. Perhaps just remove the head with no power on, waggle the spindle like Dave suggests and see if it moves any further, perhaps crud inside can be persuaded to shift. Mind you @Onoff valve above only moves a little. Let us know how you get on.

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Nickfromwales Advanced Member

Nickfromwales

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Jesus! 

OK, the valve is cream crackered. ;)  You've had your money's worth out of this one I'm sure, so time to get the plumber in and fit a new one.

Do not just change the head, it's the valve body which has killed the actuator head and you'll just be in the same boat in a weeks time if you do.

Problem solved.

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Nickfromwales Advanced Member

Nickfromwales

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7 minutes ago, joe90 said:

I have been thinking about this, I wonder if @ProDave is talking about the mid position three way valves rather than the diverter 3 way valves. I didn’t want to give duff  info as I have done this quite a few times myself in the past. Perhaps just remove the head with no power on, waggle the spindle like Dave suggests and see if it moves any further, perhaps crud inside can be persuaded to shift. Let us know how you get on.

Yup. The diverter hardly moves, but a mid or 3 position valve has considerably more travel as it goes from heating > heating & DHW > DHW only.

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joe90 Advanced Member

joe90

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13 minutes ago, joe90 said:

I didn’t want to give duff  info as I have done this quite a few times myself in the past.


???just re read that , not quite  what I meant, I meant I have taken the head off and waggled the valve, not that I have given duff info quite a few times ???

 

@Nickfromwales is dead right ?(as always)

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Oxbow16 Regular Member

Oxbow16

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Hi all

 

Thanks for all the very helpful replies and help.  

 

To be honest, I have asked on other forums too. And I've also had a plumber visit since originally posting (boiler service). There's a real mixture of replies, with some saying just the head needs changing (which includes the plumber), and others adamant that the head is fine and just the valve needs replacing, as per most of above.

I guess that's the internet for ya!
 

On 07/09/2021 at 22:21, Onoff said:

Might assist:

 

https://www.freeheatingadvice.com/articles/honeywell-motorised-valve-faults/

 

What a great detailed read that is!  So in there it says 45 degrees rather than 90.  

 

@Nickfromwales - appreciate I'm being tight, but money is indeed tight at the moment.  And as there's no telling when we might have to upgrade things in the future (if ever), I'm reluctant to spend more funds than necessary on something which might become redundant in the future.  Of course, if it has to be changed than so be it....  

 

Thanks again everyone.

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Oxbow16 Regular Member

Oxbow16

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1 minute ago, joe90 said:

So @Oxbow16 are you still without DHW? If so what are you going to do?

 

Tbh, we're not really DHW type people!  It hasn't been used for two years or so.  When I go around other people's houses I still can't quite get my head around being able to turn a tap and get hot water.

 

After the bathroom refit, it will get used maybe once a week or so - for a shower - but that's more because I've recently been learning how things can seize up and/or fail if not used regularly.  

 

Appreciate the concern though :)

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Onoff Advanced Member

Onoff

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I'll dunk this Tower 3 port in a bucket of citric acid to de-rust the bolts. I'll strip it apart when done.

 

A few thoughts if you DIY it:

 

I fitted like for like originally, replacing Tower valves with the same. I dicked around replacing micro switches and other components here and there.

 

I used PTFE tape as was on them when I took them off.

 

All the valves leaked over time.

 

I replaced the x2 2 ports and x1 3 port with Honeywell. This time, no PTFE tape just Jet Blue Plus thread sealing compound. 

 

Getting the old olives off; a multi tool with bi-metal blade (like hacksaw teeth) is good. 

 

The nuts on the Tower valve aren't the same thread as on the Honeywell. I was going to see if I could get away with reusing the Tower nuts/olives on the Honeywell valve...I couldn't even though both valves are for 28mm pipe.

 

Edited by Onoff
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Oxbow16 Regular Member

Oxbow16

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22 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

It’s not cost effective to pay for repeated drain-downs and plumbers visits. 

 

True, and I do like to be as cost effective as possible!  But for the various reasons, the house is going to have to be done in stages and so there will definitely be another drain down at some point after the bathroom refit.  Possibly a further two.  

 

23 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

It’s not cost effective to pay for repeated drain-downs and plumbers visits. 
https://www.bes.co.uk/motorised-mid-position-valve-3-port-28mm-17392/

 

Change of £40 inc VAT !!

 

Thanks for the link.  Do you find these third party ones ok?  I read in quite a few places to stick with Honeywell if possible, or a known named brand if not...   

 

@Onoff - thanks for sharing.  When it comes to the plumbing work though I don't like to get involved.  I'd be happy replacing the head myself, but not the valve.  

 

Thanks everyone for the replies and help.

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Onoff Advanced Member

Onoff

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2 hours ago, Oxbow16 said:

But for the various reasons, the house is going to have to be done in stages and so there will definitely be another drain down at some point after the bathroom refit.

 

You might think about putting in (ball lever) isolation valves on circuits you're later going to hack into. Saves draining down the whole lot. 

 

 

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