Pasquil Roof Trusses from Chorley

[jack1962]

Has anybody had any dealings with Pasquil manufacturing plant in chorley, if so how was the quality of the product?

[nod]

Yes

I used them for floors and Trusses on our previous build 10 miles from us 

I received quotes on Thursday for our next 

[jack1962]

21 hours ago, nod said:

Yes

I used them for floors and Trusses on our previous build 10 miles from us 

I received quotes on Thursday for our next 

Hi Nod thanks for the reply, how did you find the quality, i have just received approx 33 attic trusses along with box trusses etc and i am not overly impressed,, one of my box girder diagonals was 4020mm x 4045mm and the trusses hmmm ..are their tolerances they work to? 

[nod]

Hi Jack 

I was happy with there work 

But our roof was quite straightforward and the two garages where bog standard 

Unlike our next build with Attic trusses for the workshop and two vaulted ceilings

and quite a bit of cutting for me to do on the trusses 

So they will have to be right 

 

Are Pasquils going to remedy these faults 

Or at least compensate you for the extra work 

 

[dangti6]

Think mine were made in Cornwall - and I have my doubts about their grading as one piece of timber I recently came across within a truss in my loft has a knot or similar the size of a fist which runs across the full width and the timber is probably half as thick as the rest. I’ll have to take a photo. Try to pretend I didn’t notice it ?

Edited September 5, 2021 by dangti6

[jack1962]

27 minutes ago, nod said:

Hi Jack 

I was happy with there work 

But our roof was quite straightforward and the two garages where bog standard 

Unlike our next build with Attic trusses for the workshop and two vaulted ceilings

and quite a bit of cutting for me to do on the trusses 

So they will have to be right 

 

Are Pasquils going to remedy these faults 

Or at least compensate you for the extra work 

 

Hi Nod will be speaking to them in the morning, our house we are doing is T shaped with 11 Velux and 2 Dormers  the top bar of the T is 45 deg pitch and the joining roof  is ,,get this , 50.88 Deg...come on 50.88 Deg, The span on the 45 deg  is 6400mm and on the 50Deg 5180mm .. Hell of a lot of work,

[nod]

Hopefully you get sorted 

You really need a rep to come down

 

Keep us posted 

[jack1962]

16 hours ago, nod said:

Hopefully you get sorted 

You really need a rep to come down

 

Keep us posted 

Hi Nod

well the update is they wanted me to send photos, i told no, i want to see a rep and he can take photos, i have since discovered also that the gable ladders, the nails have been shot through and have missed the connecting timber, i was also ready to put a truss up and discovered a nail plate missing, I got back onto chorley spoke to the production manager, he stated he would site tomorrow, then i received a voicemail asking if i could put it off until wednesday as his car is in the garage. I have since made another phone call to Manager and i expressed in no uncertain terms my thoughts on his excuse about car in garage, I have halted truss work as the issues mentioned have to be resolved. I live in scotland and i ordered my trusses through pasquill in Uddingston as  they are approx 10 miles from me, and any issues could have been dealt with local. i have yet to be given a reason as to why the production was moved to Chorley, with the result of them being produced in chorley , Uddingston are stepping back from it. again something i find irritating as the order, design  and payment was all placed through Uddingston

[nod]

That seems pretty poor 

Our quite was pushed onto somewhere over 200 miles away 

Fingers crossed for yours 

[jack1962]

On 06/09/2021 at 15:23, nod said:

That seems pretty poor 

Our quite was pushed onto somewhere over 200 miles away 

Fingers crossed for yours 

Hi Nod 

here is a wee selection of pics,,,i am trying to get them to give me the specs they work to,, they did quote BS EN 14250 which relates to the topic of - TIMBER STRUCTURES - PRODUCT REQUIREMENTS FOR PREFABRICATED STRUCTURAL MEMBERS ASSEMBLED WITH PUNCHED METAL PLATE FASTENERS

[Gus Potter]

On 05/09/2021 at 20:19, jack1962 said:

Hi Nod thanks for the reply, how did you find the quality, i have just received approx 33 attic trusses along with box trusses etc and i am not overly impressed,, one of my box girder diagonals was 4020mm x 4045mm and the trusses hmmm ..are their tolerances they work to? 

Hello Jack.

 

Yes there are tolerances..to some extent.. but it's a long topic.

 

If you are not familiar with the in's and out's of truss manufacturing then one easy way is to turn the argument around when the rep comes and make them do the work. Yes they may be quoting the Eurocodes to you as they know it's not common bed time reading..

 

What you have here can be called a "lack of fit" in other words, there is a gap. When working in tension say the toothed nail connector is pulled tight.. often fine with a moderate lack of fit but when in compression.. a closer examination is required. Ask your rep to provide you with their test results / or SE sign off that demonstrates the gap you see is acceptable.

 

Also ask them to provide you with the specific code clauses that deal with lack of fit. Explain you want to resolve this so it would be helpful if everyone is using the same hymn sheet and referring to the same clauses.  If they can provide above info and show it is ok.. well should be ok? The gap is not horrendous so you may find all is ok. It's hard to give a definitive answer as much of truss connection design is by testing so each nail plate behaves in a different way. They are not keen to provide info as in some ways they are giving away their family silver.. testing and development costs a fortune.

 

 

 

On 05/09/2021 at 21:14, jack1962 said:

Hi Nod will be speaking to them in the morning, our house we are doing is T shaped with 11 Velux and 2 Dormers  the top bar of the T is 45 deg pitch and the joining roof  is ,,get this , 50.88 Deg...come on 50.88 Deg, The span on the 45 deg  is 6400mm and on the 50Deg 5180mm .. Hell of a lot of work,

No, not really with modern software. The funny angle come from the fact that you are working to datums and this can throw up the funny angles on fabricated trusses.  remember we are using computers to design and produce the data files for the machines that cut the timber.. it's not like a cut roof where you have a joiner with a set square. That said I would always aim to use standard pitches and so on as the slater / tiler and joiner still need to loose form the valleys, soffits and so on.

 

On 06/09/2021 at 14:44, jack1962 said:

Hi Nod

well the update is they wanted me to send photos, i told no, i want to see a rep and he can take photos, i have since discovered also that the gable ladders, the nails have been shot through and have missed the connecting timber, i was also ready to put a truss up and discovered a nail plate missing, I got back onto chorley spoke to the production manager, he stated he would site tomorrow, then i received a voicemail asking if i could put it off until wednesday as his car is in the garage. I have since made another phone call to Manager and i expressed in no uncertain terms my thoughts on his excuse about car in garage, I have halted truss work as the issues mentioned have to be resolved. I live in scotland and i ordered my trusses through pasquill in Uddingston as  they are approx 10 miles from me, and any issues could have been dealt with local. i have yet to be given a reason as to why the production was moved to Chorley, with the result of them being produced in chorley , Uddingston are stepping back from it. again something i find irritating as the order, design  and payment was all placed through Uddingston

Uddingston.. down the road from me so familiar with the factory to some extent.

 

The gable ladders are still "hand build" where as the trusses are set on a "jig" on a very "sofisticated" bit of kit.

 

Yes best to put work on hold until resolved if you can.

 

[nod]

4K more expensive than the nearest quote

So won’t be using them this time 

[jack1962]

1 minute ago, nod said:

4K more expensive than the nearest quote

So won’t be using them this time 

August last year we were quoted  7k before Vat,, when we went ahead and started the process again it had went to 13.5 K before VAT  ,, i know there has been an increase in timber costs, i just found it a bit of a blow

[jack1962]

14 minutes ago, Gus Potter said:

Hello Jack.

 

Yes there are tolerances..to some extent.. but it's a long topic.

 

If you are not familiar with the in's and out's of truss manufacturing then one easy way is to turn the argument around when the rep comes and make them do the work. Yes they may be quoting the Eurocodes to you as they know it's not common bed time reading..

 

What you have here can be called a "lack of fit" in other words, there is a gap. When working in tension say the toothed nail connector is pulled tight.. often fine with a moderate lack of fit but when in compression.. a closer examination is required. Ask your rep to provide you with their test results / or SE sign off that demonstrates the gap you see is acceptable.

 

Also ask them to provide you with the specific code clauses that deal with lack of fit. Explain you want to resolve this so it would be helpful if everyone is using the same hymn sheet and referring to the same clauses.  If they can provide above info and show it is ok.. well should be ok? The gap is not horrendous so you may find all is ok. It's hard to give a definitive answer as much of truss connection design is by testing so each nail plate behaves in a different way. They are not keen to provide info as in some ways they are giving away their family silver.. testing and development costs a fortune.

 

 

 

No, not really with modern software. The funny angle come from the fact that you are working to datums and this can throw up the funny angles on fabricated trusses.  remember we are using computers to design and produce the data files for the machines that cut the timber.. it's not like a cut roof where you have a joiner with a set square. That said I would always aim to use standard pitches and so on as the slater / tiler and joiner still need to loose form the valleys, soffits and so on.

 

Uddingston.. down the road from me so familiar with the factory to some extent.

 

The gable ladders are still "hand build" where as the trusses are set on a "jig" on a very "sofisticated" bit of kit.

 

Yes best to put work on hold until resolved if you can.

 

Hi Gus

when i 1st asked about the specification for the gap,, i was told 10mm ,,when i asked which standards they went by i was told it was BS EN 14250, I then asked can he send the relevant extract, where upon he stated " hold on i have them here loading, oh i apologise it is not 10mm it is 1.5mm " again i asked if he could forward me the extracts relating to the specification they work to, i received an e-mail saying confidentiality does not permit it.

[Gus Potter]

Just now, jack1962 said:

Hi Gus

when i 1st asked about the specification for the gap,, i was told 10mm ,,when i asked which standards they went by i was told it was BS EN 14250, I then asked can he send the relevant extract, where upon he stated " hold on i have them here loading, oh i apologise it is not 10mm it is 1.5mm " again i asked if he could forward me the extracts relating to the specification they work to, i received an e-mail saying confidentiality does not permit it.

Jack, you're making headway. Yes, It comes as no surprise to me that they have a "confidentaility" concern. I would not pelt the rep at this stage.. oh and if you are the rep reading this it's not something that you may be expected to know in great detail unless you have been designing and selling trusses for a long time.

 

Jack you may wish to do the following. Write back in laymans terms and state that you bought the trusses from them as they are a CE approved fabricator (which I believe they state they hold) as you wished to be assured you were buying a quality and quality controlled product that complied with the Scottish Building Regulations.. You may wish to also say that it is your understanding their roof trusses are CE approved (look at the data badge for the CE mark) in the same way that structural steel must be supplied by a fabricator holding the CE mark as it is a legal statutory UK requirement, not least to ensure public safety.

 

Make them an offer. Either come up with the technical information or you may contact trading standards, the HSE or the company that have oversight on their product approval. Be friendly but firm. Say you will be happy to maintain confidentiality as you just want to resolve the situation. Also say that you may or may not get your own SE to review the information they provide depending on whether they engage in a responsible manner. Make no mistake here. When it comes to structural safety it is a serious matter. A failure on their part to properly engage with you can have serious financial consequences for them coupled with a loss of reputation.

 

You may also wish to mention that due to say the "shot through nails" that you have a concern that this may have weakend the timber locally and that you are also seeking to have these concerns addressed. Point out that you have lost "confidence" rightly or wrongly as the rep has back tracked on their "gap" 10mm now 1.5mm.

 

Make no mistake here. When it comes to structural safety it is a serious matter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[nod]

45 minutes ago, jack1962 said:

August last year we were quoted  7k before Vat,, when we went ahead and started the process again it had went to 13.5 K before VAT  ,, i know there has been an increase in timber costs, i just found it a bit of a blow

I was thinking the same attic trusses for 9x9 garage and hose trusses came to 15 k plus vat 

another quote came in at 2k less for garage and nearly 3k for the house 

Companies are using price hikes to add more on top for themselves 

 

BB supply quote is nearly twice last time 

I contacted a company nearly hundred miles away for a supply and fit quote Including them paying for a crane 

I used a borrowed digger last time 

They are coming out at less than a grand plus vat more 

Ive gone back to the original supplier They think they may of quoted for both plots ?

Ive only budgeted 3.5 k plus vat for 175m2 

 

 

[Gus Potter]

Difficult times.

 

If you have a simple roof although say loaded with attic rooms it might be worth looking at a traditional cut roof. Here you can use some simple steels or purlins at attic floor level to relieve some of the load. Much will depend on your circumstances but it's doable.

 

Prefabricated trusses are generally made from a high grade timber TR26 and I have heard the big developers have "hoovered" it up. With a traditional roof you can go for a C16 or C24 timber that is maybe more "easily" available.. some weeks it is, some not, but at least you have time hopefully on your side and the reassurance that you have the material and that it belongs to you.

 

The main thing is that you can spend time getting all your timber to site, store it carefully and then hopefully this will allow you to manage your progamme as you are less reliant on say cranes, delivery times of trusses and so on?

 

Yes, it's not the most efficient way maybe, but in the round it may be worth a look even if to rule it out as an option.

 

 

 

[jack1962]

18 hours ago, Gus Potter said:

Jack, you're making headway. Yes, It comes as no surprise to me that they have a "confidentaility" concern. I would not pelt the rep at this stage.. oh and if you are the rep reading this it's not something that you may be expected to know in great detail unless you have been designing and selling trusses for a long time.

 

Jack you may wish to do the following. Write back in laymans terms and state that you bought the trusses from them as they are a CE approved fabricator (which I believe they state they hold) as you wished to be assured you were buying a quality and quality controlled product that complied with the Scottish Building Regulations.. You may wish to also say that it is your understanding their roof trusses are CE approved (look at the data badge for the CE mark) in the same way that structural steel must be supplied by a fabricator holding the CE mark as it is a legal statutory UK requirement, not least to ensure public safety.

 

Make them an offer. Either come up with the technical information or you may contact trading standards, the HSE or the company that have oversight on their product approval. Be friendly but firm. Say you will be happy to maintain confidentiality as you just want to resolve the situation. Also say that you may or may not get your own SE to review the information they provide depending on whether they engage in a responsible manner. Make no mistake here. When it comes to structural safety it is a serious matter. A failure on their part to properly engage with you can have serious financial consequences for them coupled with a loss of reputation.

 

You may also wish to mention that due to say the "shot through nails" that you have a concern that this may have weakend the timber locally and that you are also seeking to have these concerns addressed. Point out that you have lost "confidence" rightly or wrongly as the rep has back tracked on their "gap" 10mm now 1.5mm.

 

Make no mistake here. When it comes to structural safety it is a serious matter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Gus 

I assume that they will be working to something similar to that in the photo. Surely if that were the case, why would they not just send the specs that they work to and allay the  concerns that  i have spoke to them about,,,would that not be the simplest way

[Gus Potter]

Hello Jack.

 

Yes they will be working to something along lines of the Canadian / American codes.

 

I appreciate your incredulity ...why not just provide you with the info and allow you, the customer to take an informed view?

 

There can be many reasons for them not adopting this approach. One might be that the rep is not allowed to step outwith their brief. Their job (the rep) is to sell. The production manager and the folk that are doing the SE stuff in the background all have their positions to protect. That is part of modern coporate life, the greasy pole. It is not good for the "team" if the rep gives you the technical spec that say drops the production manager in the..custard.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jack1962]

10 hours ago, Gus Potter said:

Hello Jack.

 

Yes they will be working to something along lines of the Canadian / American codes.

 

I appreciate your incredulity ...why not just provide you with the info and allow you, the customer to take an informed view?

 

There can be many reasons for them not adopting this approach. One might be that the rep is not allowed to step outwith their brief. Their job (the rep) is to sell. The production manager and the folk that are doing the SE stuff in the background all have their positions to protect. That is part of modern coporate life, the greasy pole. It is not good for the "team" if the rep gives you the technical spec that say drops the production manager in the..custard.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Gus

I may have failed to mention the fact the the rep was in actual fact the production manager, i have asked for a copy of his findings, it is now escalated to regional manager level. The rep/PM apparently relayed back to the original designer , " they were not really that bad"  Not that they were in spec and okay, but in his opinion not really that bad. What is "not really that bad" meant to suggest?

Well spotted they image of the truss specs is American, in those specs, if the gap is out with the specs then the remedial action is to insert metal wedges and  bent over and nailed.

What i also found a little strange is i only know the apparent Rep/PM as Jimmy , there was no ID badge, business card, i would also have expected the REP/PM to have turned up wearing a hard hat and Hi Vis vest when entering a work site.

I am aware of the tactics companies employ when there is an issue. Every ones tries to protect themselves and the team.

Initially when i spoke to a general manager, i did ask that when the REP/PM was sent to the site, could he bring the specs for the plating and Gaps, i was assured that would be the case, this did not happen. There was and issue with the a nail plate, i had been on the point of putting a truss up, when i noticed there was a nail plate missing.

 

[markc]

I used to do a lot of work with a couple of truss manufacturers and the joints in the photos would have not left the premises. If the joints cannot be pulled together then the piece was cut wrong or the design/detailing doesn’t work. Hedgehog plates are amazing as long as the material is close fitting.

[jack1962]

1 hour ago, markc said:

I used to do a lot of work with a couple of truss manufacturers and the joints in the photos would have not left the premises. If the joints cannot be pulled together then the piece was cut wrong or the design/detailing doesn’t work. Hedgehog plates are amazing as long as the material is close fitting.

Hi Mark

Thanks for your reply

I have did send those photos to a general manager at pasquill who admitted in a phone call approx 1/2 hour ago that after seeing the pics , he agrees that they are not acceptable. there are several trusses where there are multiple points like that on the 1 truss,, there had been a Rep/ Production manager visit the site, i have asked for a copy of his findings as apparently he had taken photos,,but i fear the may have been selective.

[Mr Punter]

In a lot of firms they employ someone who could be described as the "Shit Deflector".