Electric Car Charge Points

[Barney12]

We are serious considering an electric car for the better half. Her driving range is circa 4 miles and tops an impressive 30-40 miles a week so it seems like a no brainer. The Renault Zoe is currently top of the list as it's in the "super mini" category she wants (and she thinks the Nissan Leaf is bug ugly ) 

 

So my mind is wandering to towards home charging points. Renault seem to recommend these guys:

 

https://chargemasterplc.com/for-home

 

Does anyone have any experience of this or others? I'd much prefer my local sparky to install something rather than one of these mass market companies that will no doubt tack a cable to the wall after drilling an oversized hole through the wall  

 

TIA

[Jeremy Harris]

I'd just get your electrician to fit a charge point that has no data transmission capability.  There are several suppliers of EVSE equipment, and they are easy to connect.  I have two, a 30A one at one and of the drive and 15A one at the other, with the 30A one having a standard IEC 62196-2 socket, rather than a fixed trailing lead, so visitors can use it.

 

I designed and made both my EVSEs, but there are kits available from people like http://evbitz.uk for those who are competent to build them, or you can just buy a ready built EVSE on it's own from someone like Rolec.  There's about £100 worth of parts in an EVSE, including the (expensive) connector cost, so not a great deal to be saved over the price of a kit, but a fair bit to be saved over the cost of a ready-made unit. 

 

Be aware that you need to know the type of connector the car uses, though.  Most still use the J1772 connector, and a lot of charge points are supplied with a tethered J1772 connector on a lead, but I foresee a time when there will be a switch to the IEC62196-2 connector, so a charge point with an IEC 62196-2 socket instead of a flying lead may be more future-proof.

[Mackers]

I think you'd only use a company life that if there its a grant on offer. 

 

Even still I'd prefer to use a local guy that you know as you know the standard of his work. 

 

What's the charging rate of these cars? Are there fast chargers?

[Jeremy Harris]

4 minutes ago, Mackers said:

I think you'd only use a company life that if there its a grant on offer. 

 

Even still I'd prefer to use a local guy that you know as you know the standard of his work. 

 

What's the charging rate of these cars? Are there fast chargers?

 

The maximum charge rate from single phase is usually around 30 A or so, for faster charge rates (which only some EVs accept) you either need to have a three phase onboard charger (not very common, but the IEC 62196-2 and J1772 connectors do support it) or a DC charge point, like CHAdeMO or the Tesla-only Supercharger, that needs a three phase supply.  The charger in my car is only about 2.5 kW, so a 15A charge point is ample, but the car sets the charge current, after reading the available current via the EVSE J1772 protocol (there's bi-directional hand shaking on a 1KHz pilot signal that controls the DP contactor in the charge point and tells the car what the charge point can deliver).

[AliG]

A 13A socket has a theoretical charge rate of 3kW, although the link to Chargemaster suggests that it probably charges at around 2kW which seems about right.

 

I would think the most popular charging option is going to be 30A, 7kW. This would involve similar work to any appliance in the house requiring a 40A fuse. the 22kW option requires a three phase power supply as it can draw more than 100A.

 

Renault provide a page showing charging times with different charger options here.

 

https://www.renault.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/zoe-250/battery-and-charging.html

 

They offer 2 batteries, 22 and 40kWh.

 

Roughly you can divide the battery capacity by the charging rate to get the charging time.

 

The largest battery you can buy at the moment is probably the 100kWh Tesla. To this would take 33 hours on a 3kW supply, and 14 on a 7kW supply.

 

Tesla max home charger is 72A or 16kW.

 

Tesla superhcarger connect direct to the battery and can charge at a rate of over 100kW but have to slow down for the last 20% of battery capcity to protect the battery

 

The charger you should install depends on your driving pattern, your willingness to pay for it, your patience and your electrical supply.

 

3-4 miles a day would be fine on a 13A socket, but  there would be times when you drive 40 miles and then want to recharge quickly and do it again.

 

A Zoe 22kW has a practical range of just over 100 miles and would take 11 hours to charge from a socket if it was empty.

 

Personally I am going to be installing cabling for 30A chargers in my new place but for your use case you might not need anything.

[Jeremy Harris]

A 13 A BS1363 plug/socket shouldn't be used above 10 A continuously, according to the standard.  For this reason, the portable chargers that are supplied with EVs, or plug-in chargers are all limited to 10 A.

 

Longer range EVs usually come with, or have an option of being fitted with, a 6 kW to 7 kW single phase charger, and some now also have fast DC chargers, either CHAdeMO or, in the case of Tesla, their proprietary Supercharger connector.  I suspect that DC charging will become more common, as it has the advantage for the car manufacturers of losing a fairly hefty AC charger.  The AC charger in my car takes up room under the floor that could usefully house more batteries.  What doesn't seem to have taken off here is the option of using an AC three phase charger.  The connectors in use at the moment support 32 A, three phase, but I don't know of any EV that can use this.

 

I charge at around 10 A from the 15 A charge points at each end of my daily 16 mile commute.  Two to three hours of charging is enough to make my journeys around 70% EV, 30% hybrid, meaning the car does around 115 mpg in winter and around 155mpg in summer.

Edited March 21, 2017 by JSHarris

[AliG]

11 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

A 13 A BS1363 plug/socket shouldn't be used above 10 A continuously, according to the standard.  For this reason, the portable chargers that are supplied with EVs, or plug-in chargers are all limited to 10 A.

 

 

Thanks, that explains why charging is around 2kW.

 

Presumably a 3kW charger can be fitted where a 13A sockets existed without having to change the wiring and getting you a modestly faster speed.

 

The Tesla wall connector page on their website suggests that it uses 3-phase.

 

It says 7kW on 1-phase and 11kW on 3-phase which can be increased to 16.5kW if the car itself has the fast charger option.

 

As an aside I recently had an overnight test drive in a Model X. It was lovely to drive but I decided against it for a few reasons, mainly price after the recent massive FX induced price increases. It is a shame as drove a left hand drive one which was awful before the price went up.

[Jeremy Harris]

EVSEs need to be connected to a dedicated radial, because they draw a high current for a long period of time, so shouldn't be connected to a ring final, unless they have a BS1363 plug.

 

The AC charge point standard requires that a double pole RCD and MCB (or a double pole RCBO) be fitted, and this is usually built in to the commercial, after-market, EVSE units.  My own view is that it is better if the radial is fed from a DP RCBO, and this is what I've had done.  My 15 A EVSE is run from a 16 A DP RCBO, the 30 A one is run from a 32 A DP RCBO.  The EVSE has an additional layer of protection, because it has a DP contactor, that only supplies power to the cable after the low voltage pilot signal has received the correct "command" from the car.  There's also additional fault protection built in to the EVSE, so that operating the latch on the car plug commands the EVSE to turn off the contactor, so the lead is always "dead" when it's not plugged in to the car.

 

The Tesla fast home charger unit needs a 3 phase supply, but the connector to the car is DC, as the car doesn't have a 3 phase AC charger built in, as far as I know, only a low rate single phase AC charger like other fast charge EVs.  DC charging has the big advantage of not needing a big charger in the car, as the battery is DC.  This means that simple pulse width modulation of the DC from the fast charger can be used to control battery charge current, with no big inductors to take up space and get hot.

[Barney12]

Thanks guys. Lots of reading to do.

[Jeremy Harris]

Rolec do a fairly wide range of charge points: http://www.rolecserv.com/ev-charging/product/Wall-Mounted-EV-Charging-Options

 

I have a 32A Rolec charge cable (J1772 to IEC 62196-2 connectors) that I keep in the car to use with public charge points (the car doesn't come with a charge cable for public charge points - it's a £450 extra......................) and am impressed with the connectors, they are better made than the £55 Dostar J1772 plugs that I've bought for the 15 A charge points I've made.

 

Unless you want to give away data to all and sundry, then I'd suggest staying away from the OLEV grant-funded charge points, as they communicate via a mobile phone signal and sell user and usage data to anyone interested, which is why they are relatively cheap.  I only found this out when the grant-funded charge points were still "free".  I asked for one, the company came out to do a site survey and told me I couldn't have one as there was no mobile phone signal.  A bit of digging around showed that the government deal was that free or subsidised charge points were provided on the basis that the supplier could do what they like with your data.  You can tell these charge points from the others, as like the public ones, they are activated by an RFID card, which has your name, address etc encoded in the account information.  If a charge point doesn't need an RFID card then the chances are that it doesn't send data to the supplier, but it's worth checking, if you're concerned about data snooping.  There's no practical requirement for a home charge point to be like a smart meter, and dumb charge points work as well as smart ones.

 

Edited to add:

Here's a table of EVs and their charge requirements/capabilities, that indicates what each model can accept: http://ukevse.org.uk/charge-points-chargers/charge-point-compatibility/

Edited March 21, 2017 by JSHarris
Added car/EVSE details

[Barney12]

I hadn't appreciated those installers collected data  Thanks for the heads up. Like you we have no mobile signal so that's that option gone from the list. 

 

[Mackers]

Some good reading there. Ill review and post back later. Looks like a hybrid is the way forwards for now for people doing long journeys.

[AliG]

Resurrecting old thread.

 

So I am just speccing the electrics for the house.

 

I have not ordered an EV yet, although I expect to have either an EV or plug in hybrid next year.

 

What should I have the electrician install in the garage.

 

I have a 3 phase supply.

 

Should I install a 3 phase 32amp socket? Can I then connect this to the correct charger when I get the car.

 

Different cars have a variety of maximum charge rates including 16a, 32a, 16a 3 phase and 32a 3 phase.

 

If I have a 32a 3 phase socket can I plug any lower rated portable charging cable into this with no issues or alternatively could I just wire a charging box into this once I know what kind of car I actually have?

 

Alternatively I just install conduit from the CU to the garage and leave it, but it would likely be cheaper if I can do as much as possible now.

[Jeremy Harris]

If you have 3 phase, then I'd run a hefty 3 phase feed to where you think you may want a charge point.  Few EVs can charge from 3 phase at the moment, but there are 3 phase to DC fast charge points around, and a 32A 3 phase supply would allow the fitting of one of these.  No need for a socket, as the EVSE will have to be hard wired, so just run a suitable 3 phase cable to a junction box, near to where you think you may want a charge point fitted.

 

You may want to think about having two charge points, depending on the layout of your parking areas.  I have a 15A EVSE at one end of the drive and a 30A one by the garage.  This makes it easier to plug in wherever I happen to park..

[AliG]

Thanks, so just a junction box for later connection.

 

The garage is 8.6m wide so I think if I put it at the centre rear I could attach to 3 cars inside without too much bother.

 

The cars are always in the garage so no need for outside connection, although there will be an outside socket as I guess eventually you might want to consider visitors needing to charge. Its not an issue at the moment, but this will have to be sorted with wide scale EV adoption. My parents are about to buy an apartment, I think they should be wiring up the parking spaces outside for charging, but of course it would be a massive hassle as they would have to be wired back to everyone's meter.

[Jeremy Harris]

Yes, just a junction box, as the EVSE has the electronics in to control the charge point, and provide safety isolation, so needs to be hard wired to the supply.  A typical charge lead will be 5m long, so you should be able to connect from a centrally mounted EVSE to any car parked in the garage, as long as the vehicle charge connector end is facing the right way.  These vary, my Prius Plug in has the charge connector on the rear offside wing, the Nissan Leaf has it's connector under a flap on the front of the bonnet, so you may need to position the cars the right way around in order to connect.

 

Some EVSEs have a fixed charge cable, but if you're unsure of the type of car you might get, then an EVSE with a socket, the same as those on public charge points, might make more sense.  I have one of each, the one by the garage has a socket on the front, the one at the other end of the drive has a fixed lead and charge plug.

 

It would be great to see more charge points around.  Anyone who's in our area is welcome to use one of mine, and the more people prepared to share charge points the better, in my view.

[Temp]

There is probably a web site where you can rent out your home charging point.

[AliG]

I had given up on the idea of getting a Model X, but they have just announced that they now have a folding second row seat. I could not bring myself to get a massive SUV  that I couldn't for example put a 55 inch TV inside. The electric car may just have got closer.

 

They have also made the X75D accelerate faster for the same money.

 

I am holding off for the Model 3 pricing probably at the end of this month as they might have to change things. For example the £5k cost of the autopilot system might be too steep on a £35k car so they might have to cut some prices.

[Jeremy Harris]

I understand that the Model 3 has just gone into production, two weeks earlier than planned, with deliveries to start at the end of the month.  I will watch with interest, as it's my hot favourite for a replacement for the Prius Plug-in, the snags may well be the eventual UK price and the long lead-time.

[AliG]

I am suspicious that the supposed £35k price will not be a reality, or at least a practical reality.

 

It may be that an absolutely base model car comes in at this price. They will be rear drive only to begin with, I personally would not like such a powerful rear wheel driven car as they are a nightmare on the odd occasion when it snows.

 

I would think a more standard spec with metallic paint, leather seats and 4WD will come in at around £45k.

 

One of the issues on the X/S is that some of the car's features do not work without ordering the autopilot system.

 

All cars are built with autopilot hardware, it is the £5k to add enhanced autopilot and £3k to add full self driving (Although the functionality doesn't exist yet some people could pay for this and I suspect sell their car on before it ever works).

 

I do not need autopilot on a car. I rarely drive out of town or long distances, so I thought I could keep the price down by avoiding this option. However, I do like automatic cruise control which is not a stand alone option and would require me spending £5k on enhanced autopilot. Having read the manual just now you seem to get automatic wipers and lights and standard cruise control as well as all the automatic braking features without enhanced autopilot. Although bizarrely they have not yet managed to implement automatic wipers on the new autopilot system so they don't currently work.

 

 

 

[SteamyTea]

Does the Tesla still collect driving and navigation data, even without the self drive capability turned on?

 

I actually saw a car at the charging point at Land's end, first one ever.

[AliG]

I think so, I just read that they have now started to collect picture form the cameras to help teach the cars. People have seen massive spikes in the amount of data the cars are sending back.

[newhome]

Something to keep in view. Just a proposal at present. 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44759150

 

This would be relatively straightforward for a property with its own drive but could prove challenging for those that don’t. 

[Jeremy Harris]

Not hard to arrange at the planning stage, I found.  I just made sure I had a couple of lengths of SWA buried so they ran to points either end of the drive to connect charge points to.  So far I've only bothered to hook up the charge point nearest to where I usually park, but I really should get around to wiring up the other one, it's probably less than an hours work and I have the thing sat in a box waiting to be connected.