soil stack/foul pipe excavation - HELP!!

[TryC]

 

Hi All,

 

I'm not sure if I am posting to the correct forum string - if not, please kindly advise so I can re-post it in the correct forum section.

 

We're in the process of installing a new bathroom with a toilet upstairs - there is no toilet in the house but downstairs, hence why we would like to install a toilet upstairs 

 

Intially, the bath fitter chosen for the project advised he would provide the service end-to-end. Alas, that is not the case and he is unable/won't bring up the internal soil stack downstairs so it can be connected to the soil pipe for the new upstairs toilet. He just wants to be able to connect to it from his end, jobs done.

 

But this has given me nothing but a headache in terms of finding someone who will do only this part of the job (vs. doing the entire bathroom install). I have been told by several different folks that I need a plumber, so I reach out to a plumber, only to be told I need a builder, only for the builder to say I need a plumber. It is a vicious cycle. Then other plumbers/builders I speak to say I need a ground worker, just today I was told I needed another tradesman - which I cannot remember now.

 

Does anyone know what type of tradesman I actually need here? since all these people are pointed to each other to do this type of work. The current soil pipe is internal, so it needs to be dug up/the tradesman would have to find it and dig it up/connect it.

 

Also, should I be wary of contractors who are not even aware that they need to meet with the local councils (regardless of the property being council or non-council) to discuss about about building regulations and keeping in-line with the regulations of connecting to the correct pipes for the the soil stack waste.

 

Any advice would be kindly appreciated.

[markc]

Locating and digging up a waste pipe is definitely outside the scope of a bathroom fitter, more general builder and as its internal this will involve making access through floors etc. not an easy or low cost job

[TryC]

yes, some plumbers say use a builder, builders say use a plumber, then some say use a ground worker, so it is turning out to be a big headache.

 

the quote goes from 400 to 800 to 1000 for one. 

Another one went from 650 to 1400

 

others won't touch the soil pipe.?

[Temp]

1 hour ago, TryC said:

Intially, the bath fitter chosen for the project advised he would provide the service end-to-end.

 

What does his quote say? If he's now saying he can't do it then you could terminate his contract and find someone that can do the lot. 

 

 

 

Edited April 21, 2021 by Temp

[Temp]

Is the new bathroom above the downstairs WC? Any where close? Its certainly more of a job for a small builder or general worker.

 

What part of the country are you?

 

 

 

Edited April 21, 2021 by Temp

[TryC]

7 minutes ago, Temp said:

Is the new bathroom above the downstairs WC? Any where close? Its certainly more of a job for a small builder or general worker.

 

What part of the country are you?

 

 

 

Hey, I'm in the Lancashire area. No, the bathroom is directly above the current downstairs WC. So the new WC will go directly above it.

Oldie style I know, no WC upstairs ha ha

[TryC]

15 minutes ago, Temp said:

 

What does his quote say? If he's now saying he can't do it then you could terminate his contract and find someone that can do the lot. 

 

 

 

he initially said he would do the lot, then backtracked when he saw the toilet downstairs. Just said get a builder!

[Temp]

Perhaos try posting a description of the job on my builder.com. example..

 

https://www.mybuilder.com/job/view/651662

[Temp]

Is there a stub stack in the downstairs WC or just a pipe coming out of the floor into the WC?  If its the latter this could be quite a lot of work. Might be easier to run a new stack up the outside of the house.

[TryC]

32 minutes ago, Temp said:

Is there a stub stack in the downstairs WC or just a pipe coming out of the floor into the WC?  If its the latter this could be quite a lot of work. Might be easier to run a new stack up the outside of the house.

I'm not sure what a stub stack is. 

 

Surely, if it is easier to run a new stack up on the outside, the ones that have come would of said? I would I need to specifically ask for this? (as if I know what I am talking about! ha ha)

[TryC]

1 hour ago, Temp said:

Perhaos try posting a description of the job on my builder.com. example..

 

https://www.mybuilder.com/job/view/651662

I'm a bit apprehensive about using this to post out jobs, how does this site differ from the likes of checkatrade?

[Temp]

2 hours ago, TryC said:

I'm not sure what a stub stack is. 

 

Its unlikely you have one. It's like a regular stack but shorter. Instead of going out through the roof to an open vent a stub stack is usually only a few feet high and has an Air Admittance Valve on it. If you have one its probably hidden in boxing in the corner of the down stairs WC. If you had a stub stack already its probably not a hard job to extend it upwards to the new bathroom above. They look something like this..

 

 

 

Its more likely you have a direct connection of some sort like this...

 

 

The ease with which you can add a stack for upstairs depends on what that existing downstairs room and WC connection is like and what changes can be made in that room. In the example below the WC has been moved sideways (or rather replaced with a different one off to one side) and the pipe extended upstairs. In practice the new pipe would be hidden behind boxing or a false wall so the WC might also be slightly further forward. If that's not possible the cistern could concealed or recessed into the boxing/false wall.  

 

 

This is what my downstairs WC looks like. The stack is hidden on the left as you look at it...

 

 

 

The point really is it might not be necessary to put a new hole in the floor.

 

Quote

 

Surely, if it is easier to run a new stack up on the outside, the ones that have come would of said? I would I need to specifically ask for this? (as if I know what I am talking about! ha ha)
 

 

 

It depends. If you cant do something like above then an outside stack would be the next thing to look at rather than digging up concrete(?) floors. Perhaps they didn't want to have to dig up your patio?. Does the downstairs WC connect into an inspection chamber outside?  

 

Perhaps post a bunch of photos and we can suggest other ways forward. 

 

PS I'm away travelling tomorrow so may not reply for a day or two.

 

Edited April 21, 2021 by Temp

[TryC]

52 minutes ago, Temp said:

 

Its unlikely you have one. It's like a regular stack but shorter. Instead of going out through the roof to an open vent a stub stack is usually only a few feet high and has an Air Admittance Valve on it. If you have one its probably hidden in boxing in the corner of the down stairs WC. If you had a stub stack already its probably not a hard job to extend it upwards to the new bathroom above. They look something like this..

 

 

 

Its more likely you have a direct connection of some sort like this...

 

 

The ease with which you can add a stack for upstairs depends on what that existing downstairs room and WC connection is like and what changes can be made in that room. In the example below the WC has been moved sideways (or rather replaced with a different one off to one side) and the pipe extended upstairs. In practice the new pipe would be hidden behind boxing or a false wall so the WC might also be slightly further forward. If that's not possible the cistern could concealed or recessed into the boxing/false wall.  

 

 

This is what my downstairs WC looks like. The stack is hidden on the left as you look at it...

 

 

 

The point really is it might not be necessary to put a new hole in the floor.

 

 

It depends. If you cant do something like above then an outside stack would be the next thing to look at rather than digging up concrete(?) floors. Perhaps they didn't want to have to dig up your patio?. Does the downstairs WC connect into an inspection chamber outside?  

 

Perhaps post a bunch of photos and we can suggest other ways forward. 

 

PS I'm away travelling tomorrow so may not reply for a day or two.

 

 

Thanks for your advice and information. It is very useful.

 

I managed to take some photos to show you the existing downstairs WC.

 

Pardon the dusty images ha ha. I have included two photos of the internal pipe of the toilet downstairs. We actually got this fitted about 17 years ago. I don't particularly like the pipe they used but the fitter is the neighbours son (who is a joiner), don't even get me started on that blob of plaster/cement... The original toilet was one of the old style types, I don't actually recall seeing a pipe on the old one, just a little pipe running up the wall which connected to the cistern and a pulley thing to flush!

 

The third photo is of the outside of the WC. I hope this makes sense.

 

Apparently, the soil drain and fresh water drains are separate and not combined like what is more common these days.

 

 

 

[ProDave]

So that is probably a clay or cast iron pipe in the ground.  The old WC would have been the type where the outlet went straight down into the pipe in the floor.  That flexi pipe and the cement is a bodge.

 

If that pipe and hopper in the last picture is the basin waste and is going into the foul drain then you can convert that to an external stack but you will need  to dig up a bit of the patio around the open gulley to do that.

[TryC]

55 minutes ago, ProDave said:

So that is probably a clay or cast iron pipe in the ground.  The old WC would have been the type where the outlet went straight down into the pipe in the floor.  That flexi pipe and the cement is a bodge.

 

If that pipe and hopper in the last picture is the basin waste and is going into the foul drain then you can convert that to an external stack but you will need  to dig up a bit of the patio around the open gulley to do that.

 

Thanks! the last photo is the pipe, i think is for the sink and bath tub upstairs. I think, the little top bucket thing actually has two little pipes going into it - I'll have to check tomorrow.

 

I know right, proper bodge (haha, I haven't heard that word in a while), I got home and I found that installed I was fuming, but my family said leave it since it was the neighbour's son. but I PAID for it, it wasn't like it was a free job, I wouldn't have room to complain if it were free right, but I paid hard earned money for a new toilet fit and a got a blob of cement and a plastic goose looking pipe.?

 

When you say convert the external stack, do you mean, leaving the toilet inside on the downstairs as is and just bringing it up on the outside so it can be connected to the upstairs?

[Temp]

I believe what @ProDave means is removing the gully where the pipe enters the patio and replacing with a bend (Its ok for a rainwater or grey water pipe to go into a gully but soil pipes shouldn't be open at ground level). Also replacing the hopper/bucket with a branch or two, one of which would be for the new WC, the other for the existing bath/basin. The downstairs WC need not be touched.

 

If I was doing it I would probably just replace the whole pipe with matching ffittings. Possibly in regular black plastic or the stuff that replicates cast iron pipe?

https://www.screwfix.com/p/floplast-cast-iron-effect-sp192ci-92-5-branch-black-110mm/23548?tc=IB6&ds_kid=92700055281954505&ds_rl=1249404&gclid=CjwKCAjwmv-DBhAMEiwA7xYrdxNEIQ6Z709Ebv7L7YfpbHbGsQeh0aJ6xZXquXBwSMwSPhnTCFMu1RoCiAgQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

The hardest part is probably drilling a 110mm hole in the stone for the WC pipe.

Edited April 21, 2021 by Temp

[TryC]

9 hours ago, Temp said:

I believe what @ProDave means is removing the gully where the pipe enters the patio and replacing with a bend (Its ok for a rainwater or grey water pipe to go into a gully but soil pipes shouldn't be open at ground level). Also replacing the hopper/bucket with a branch or two, one of which would be for the new WC, the other for the existing bath/basin. The downstairs WC need not be touched.

 

If I was doing it I would probably just replace the whole pipe with matching ffittings. Possibly in regular black plastic or the stuff that replicates cast iron pipe?

https://www.screwfix.com/p/floplast-cast-iron-effect-sp192ci-92-5-branch-black-110mm/23548?tc=IB6&ds_kid=92700055281954505&ds_rl=1249404&gclid=CjwKCAjwmv-DBhAMEiwA7xYrdxNEIQ6Z709Ebv7L7YfpbHbGsQeh0aJ6xZXquXBwSMwSPhnTCFMu1RoCiAgQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

The hardest part is probably drilling a 110mm hole in the stone for the WC pipe.

 

thanks for further explaining. Yes, I had one fella say that he needs to get in a specialist to drill the hole as he doesn't have the type of drill.

 

How much would you say this kinda of project should cost - all I am getting is a lot of maybe's and it depends on how far they have to dig. I have also shown them a map from united utilities to show them the pipes placement (but it is more of a sketch and doesn't tell them exactly where it is).

 

Also, should I be wary of contractors who are not even aware that they need to meet with the local councils (regardless of the property being council or non-council) to discuss about about building regulations and keeping in-line with the regulations of connecting to the correct pipes for the the soil stack waste?

 

Thanks again!

[TryC]

Hi All, 

 

Just following up with another image I mentioned yesterday about there being two pipes going in the bucket thing (what is this called anyone?), zooming it, it seems that it is duct taped together!!. I am guessing one is the sink water and one is the bath water pipes?

 

 

Here is a photo of a nearby house who have a toilet upstairs - we cannot ask who did their pipe as it was carried out by the homeowners who lived their previously. It seems a lot of the pipes in other nearby homes look similar to this but some are different. I think it is the black pipe. is that the air admittance vent you mentioned? one of the fellas who came to quote said that is there so bird's don't nest in it.

 

I'm not sure if this piping is done well or not as another fella commented on the same. 

 

 

[PeterW]

@TryC that soil stack above in black is fine - could do with a bracket on the fascia but nothing major. 
 

In terms of yours you need to track that drain entry and if it flows into the foul sewer. Quickest way is a bucket of water with some food colouring in it, and lift a manhole cover.... flush the toilet, see where the water enters the chamber. Then tip the coloured water down the trap next to that downpipe and see where it ends up. 
 

If it all ends up in the same manhole or flows down through it then happy days. You then take the gully grill out, and you can insert a clay to UPVC seal connector into the pipe and put a new stack in. 
 

In terms of coming through that wall, a pair of 40mm pipes through the wall is about the same diameter as a 110mm soil so you would only need to chisel out the edges I expect. 

[Temp]

4 hours ago, TryC said:

yesterday about there being two pipes going in the bucket thing (what is this called anyone?)

 

It's normally called a hopper. All that would/should be tidied up/replaced.

 

As @PeterW said .. lift a few manhole covers and run taps to see where water from upstairs goes.

 

I m thinking it's probably 2-3 days work and a few £hundred in pipe, bends and branches. However it really depends where the nearest manhole is. eg how far they have to dig and what in. What they have to replace afterwards.

[TryC]

9 minutes ago, Temp said:

 

It's normally called a hopper. All that would/should be tidied up/replaced.

 

As @PeterW said .. lift a few manhole covers and run taps to see where water from upstairs goes.

 

I m thinking it's probably 2-3 days work and a few £hundred in pipe, bends and branches. However it really depends where the nearest manhole is. eg how far they have to dig and what in. What they have to replace afterwards.

the nearest manhole is actually in the garden.

 

let me try the food colouring idea

 

thank you both!

[TryC]

On 22/04/2021 at 14:51, TryC said:

the nearest manhole is actually in the garden.

 

let me try the food colouring idea

 

thank you both!

 

Hi All, 

 

I finally managed to put the food colouring idea to the test!

 

I put some down the toilet, checked the man hole nearby and it seems the water flow in that man hole stayed constant. No burst of water coming through when the toilet was flushed. But I could hear the water running somewhere nearby that water pipe, but just not see it.

 

When I put the food colouring in the water in the upstairs tap, the water actually just comes down that pipe (from the photo previously shared) with the hopper. I think one is connected to the sink water and the other is the bath water, then it goes straight down the long pipe.

 

So I think I am left with more questions then answers after my experiment. Or maybe I just don't understand the whole idea!

 

Any advice would be apperciated.

[Temp]

Ideally you want to prove that water from both the upstairs bath and downstairs WC end up in the same pipe/manhole. Doesn't matter where it is. This is to rule out the remote possibility that the upstairs bath water currently goes to a soakaway (You can't put poo in a soakaway). Assuming everything ends up in the same sewer eventually then....

 

32 minutes ago, TryC said:

When I put the food colouring in the water in the upstairs tap, the water actually just comes down that pipe (from the photo previously shared) with the hopper. I think one is connected to the sink water and the other is the bath water, then it goes straight down the long pipe.

 

Thats what we expected. The question is where does it go next. Ideally you would find a manhole not far away from the gulley with bath water flowing through it. That will tell you where the pipe from upstairs goes after the gulley. Perhaps you already found that manhole but your post wasn't clear on this.

[Temp]

This is a rough idea of what I would expect you to end up with. Ive not shown the connections for the bath/basin but they would either connect into the new branch or possibly another above it. I'd replace all the grey pipe with new black. Brown pipe underground.

 

Edited May 6, 2021 by Temp

[TryC]

29 minutes ago, Temp said:

Ideally you want to prove that water from both the upstairs bath and downstairs WC end up in the same pipe/manhole. Doesn't matter where it is. This is to rule out the remote possibility that the upstairs bath water currently goes to a soakaway (You can't put poo in a soakaway). Assuming everything ends up in the same sewer eventually then....

 

 

Thats what we expected. The question is where does it go next. Ideally you would find a manhole not far away from the gulley with bath water flowing through it. That will tell you where the pipe from upstairs goes after the gulley. Perhaps you already found that manhole but your post wasn't clear on this.

 

Thanks for your input. Sorry if my post was not clear

 

Excuse my bad drawing - I never took Art at school, because I was so bad at it ha aha

 

The drawing is the back of the house - included is the hopper with the two pipes taped together.

 

The manhole is actually on my property some few yards away in the garden. When I lifted it up a small flow of water was constant going from a left to right flow direction.

 

When I turned on the water upstairs there wasn't anything affecting the water in this man hole, but then again, neither did the toilet downstairs when I flushed it - but I could hear it drain away.

 

The pipe map I received from united utilities indicate the foul pipe runs through my garden, and then the fresh water pipe runs through the front of the house (under the road).

 

Yet, even when I share this map with people coming to quote, they I guess do not find this into useful? Should it not at least give them some indication?