mrgreen1234 Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 Hi, I would be grateful for some advice and clarity on a window installation that was completed at my house. Since installation we have had beads whistling, issues of water ingress on various windows and a door, which after layman consumer research I believe highlight a lack of fundamental installation good working practices. The installer has reacted to these issues in a timely manner but we feel the remedial works are "bodged", make do fix's that are insufficient and if the original installation were done properly would not be required. Fensa have been no help at all, as the installation is over a year old. Q1: Is it a Fensa or Building Regs requirement that silicone is applied between element and sill upstand? Q2: Should a bed or foam fill be used to make up gap beneath external sill and outer block work? Q3: Should fixings be within 150mm of corner welds? Q4: If not does this potentially affect warranty? Q5:What is the means of rectification? Original installation 17/07/2019 We had the replacement of 10x upvc windows and 1x upvc door completed by a Fensa registered installer and were pleased with the installation. As we had ongoing renovation works planned throughout the house it was agreed that windows, external sills and internal plastic sills were to be fitted but internal making good of reveals was to be done by ourselves. Kitchen door 25/09/2019 Kitchen upvc door: Issues with water pooling in frame and ingress from sill edges and where screws are protruding through bottom of sill. Installer's remedy was to check drainage wasn't blocked, make some adjustments to mechanism to tighten against outer seal and fit a "make do" threshold strip to rear of frame. 26/01/20 Kitchen upvc door: Water ingress still at base of door. After 3 visits from the installer and various methods to attempt to remedy including screw cap's and silicone in various spots on outer sill. Final word was that- due to the height of the step outside, moisture was being drawn in from the outside (why was this not recognised on the original installation?) It was suggested that I retro fit a DPM between the door and kitchen floor. I have since noticed the following: The sill has detached from the frame and is sloping backwards Bottom of frame flex's due to lack of bedding Fixings being less than 100mm-150mm from corners questionable Lack of silicone between element and sill/lack of troughing Bathroom windows 24/10/20 Since the original install our 2 x bathroom windows had internal plastic sills and plastic strips on the reveals. We are currently in the process of having our bathroom re-fitted. This involved removing the plastic internal sills and having the entire room re-plastered. After a rainy and windy night we noticed moisture appearing on one of the reveals, this ingress would not have been revealed if the plastic non porous sill was still in situ. Please note that there is no bridging of the cavity due to plasterboard, bonding or muck. I cut out the area of wet plasterboard an image to a third party professional window fitter for some initial advice and he said "it looks like he hasn't troughed the end of the sills properly" 27/10/20 I contacted the original installer and he came along with a roll of damp proof membrane saying " your outer cavity wall will be wet anyway so this will stop any moisture transferring to the inside when I put this between the outer and inner wall". My reply was "no, my cavities should not be wet as I have loose fill cavity insulation, and fitting the DPM will just be a sticking plaster over a poorly sealed window. The reason I had all my windows replaced was to stop water ingression". I asked the fitter if he had ran a silicone bead between the element and sill upstand on installation. He replied "Yes I have done that but if there is a small gap or break water will get in". The installer then made the following attempt at rectification: Squirted silicone into the corners of the reveal Cut out a strip of plasterboard along the back edge of each window and filled with silicone to provide a barrier Squirted silicone from the outside into the corners of the drainage channels (on a new installation I do not think this is acceptable and looks shoddy) Since the installers remedial attempt water is still entering the cavity via the sill edge. 28/10/20 This led me to seek a second opinion from a friend who is window fitter who came to my house to visually inspect the installation. On a couple of the windows where the reveals have not yet been fully finished he managed to get his fingers into the end of the sill to check if he could feel any silicone trough application, he couldn't feel any. He also pointed out the following: Lack of bedding or foam fill to windows (able to get hand all the way under some of the sill's from the inside) Fixings being far less than 100mm-150mm from corners on many frames Suspicion that sill's have been insufficiently "troughed" with silicone or not at all. (This could be the case for every other window, but moisture is not showing due to plastic internal sill's still being in situ) Recently I decided to remove a small window to check if the installer had siliconed between the element and sill. It turns out he was lying to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oz07 Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 With respect this is a self build forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrgreen1234 Posted February 21, 2021 Author Share Posted February 21, 2021 Oh I do apologise. At the top left of my page it says " The best community on the web for self builders and RENOVATORS to DISCUSS projects and EXCHANGE IDEAS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oz07 Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 You'd be better off in a consumer rights or diy type forum. I'm sure someone will come along and help but it's quite a long winded post. Sorry to be blunt. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrgreen1234 Posted February 21, 2021 Author Share Posted February 21, 2021 I've had 2 replies already, so its not doing too bad, I appreciate your feedback. I've spoken to consumer rights already, as a layman any information on what is wrong or how to rectify would be helpful at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan52 Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 I think your best option would be too get a professional to come out do an inspection and a detailed explanation of what they think is at fault. This will then give you the basis of a claim which is realistically how it will more than likely end up. No amount of silicone will fix your issues. It's just a sticking plaster that won't last. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 (edited) You need an independent inspection, it's difficult to be critical or not, without seeing things in person. I'm not 100% familiar with the Rehau window system, but your section detail is wrong from the pictures I'm looking at. It's for an outward opening window and your door is inward opening and the window looks like a fixed window. From what I can gather the highlighted section in yellow on a window should be siliconed in, as the drainage is at the front edge & doesn't cause any issues. What does cause issues, is these cill extensions if they are not sitting on a solid base, if floating in the air and some stands on them the they will flex. The silicon will detach and issues you see in image 1 occur. I don't know the window / door system used but presume S706 - if yes, then here's the door detail. You need a 3rd party visit, you need the installer/supplier to agree to this and to cover the costs of this. They will generate a report for you they will not tell you any findings there and then but will happily chat with you, where are you located? Edited February 21, 2021 by craig 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 @mrgreen1234, I think I know where you're coming from.....You are deeply disappointed by the standard of work, and your bank balance is hurting too. There's a kind of hidden rule on the Internet; its very simple : brevity before detail. The Internet is associated with speed and speed of response, most people skim read over detail. A long detailed post requires a lot of commitment on the part of the reader. So unless the reader has a very similar problem, you aren't going to get them to commit to a detailed response. Case in point @craig above ... he's forgotten more about windows than most of us will ever know. The detail he will already know very well indeed. (He provided our windows) With us general builders, I think you might have better luck by asking a simple question - and then filling out the detail when asked: yeah but that's why I provided the detail in the first place I hear you say. Its how the information giving on the Internet works : its a pyramid. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 24 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said: Case in point @craig above ... he's forgotten more about windows than most of us will ever know Isn't that one of the mysteries of the mind. We may not be able to recall the answer now, but we know that we have known the answer in the past. Why engineering is done from first principles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 If you don't like it and they won't remedy it, issue proceedings. Not great that you were down to do the internals. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, ToughButterCup said: Case in point @craig above ... he's forgotten more about windows than most of us will ever know. Isn't that the truth. You try to remember everything, you ensure your guys are prepared and one simple tick box can cause a multitude of sins. Edited February 22, 2021 by craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, SteamyTea said: Isn't that one of the mysteries of the mind. We may not be able to recall the answer now, but we know that we have known the answer in the past..... That's got me thinking for the rest of today @SteamyTea . Perhaps also ... we know that we have known the answer to something similar ..... in the past Thanks Ian Edited February 22, 2021 by ToughButterCup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 5 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said: That's got me thinking for the rest of today https://web.stanford.edu/group/cslipublications/cslipublications/bromberger-corpus/On-What-We-Know-We-Dont-Know.pdf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 Right up my street @SteamyTea. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrgreen1234 Posted February 22, 2021 Author Share Posted February 22, 2021 Hi all, thank you for taking the time to read and reply. Your input is hugely appreciated and I've learnt lots already. My post is a cut and paste job which I originally sent to fensa as a complaint. They weren't much help as all they are concerned about is building regs. Which the specification of the windows do meet. I have contacted window surveyors and have been given a price of around £800 to survey. Many local firms i contact dont really want to get involved. But I do have a firm coming on the 10th of March. Its work for them if they can come up with a solution. Which I will then try to recover from the original installer. The window system is Rehau Total70s (sculptured). They are very nice and the hardware is great, just a shame about the installation fundamentals. I have contacted Rehau and they have sent me an installation guide and they say it is just a "guide". Whether the installer follows it or not is up to them. They did say if the installer was a registered installer of their product they would have a bit more clout and be able to help me out. So I have googled my local Rehau installer and plan to contact them to see if they can offer a solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrgreen1234 Posted February 22, 2021 Author Share Posted February 22, 2021 16 hours ago, craig said: You need an independent inspection, it's difficult to be critical or not, without seeing things in person. I'm not 100% familiar with the Rehau window system, but your section detail is wrong from the pictures I'm looking at. It's for an outward opening window and your door is inward opening and the window looks like a fixed window. From what I can gather the highlighted section in yellow on a window should be siliconed in, as the drainage is at the front edge & doesn't cause any issues. What does cause issues, is these cill extensions if they are not sitting on a solid base, if floating in the air and some stands on them the they will flex. The silicon will detach and issues you see in image 1 occur. I don't know the window / door system used but presume S706 - if yes, then here's the door detail. You need a 3rd party visit, you need the installer/supplier to agree to this and to cover the costs of this. They will generate a report for you they will not tell you any findings there and then but will happily chat with you, where are you located? Thanks Craig, I'm located in Plymouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 (edited) Let me know, I can have our subcontractor attend who is based in Plymouth. He'd charge for the call out but would give honest feedback. Edited February 22, 2021 by craig 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrgreen1234 Posted February 22, 2021 Author Share Posted February 22, 2021 35 minutes ago, craig said: Let me know, I can have our subcontractor attend who is based in Plymouth. He'd charge for the call out but would give honest feedback. Wow, that is excellent Craig I'll message you my mobile number. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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