Pocster Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 (edited) Preparing to wire up and automate my wet UFH I've purchased some actuators to sit on the manifold https://heatmisershop.co.uk/underfloor-heating-actuator-heatmiser-ta230/ A wiring centre https://heatmisershop.co.uk/heatmiser-uh8-8-zone-230v-underfloor-heating-wiring-centre/ Apparently it's easier to use this as it will turn on/off the ufh pump based on whether actuators are open or not i.e. one less thing for me to mess up Then to control each actuator https://www.vesternet.com/products/z-wave-fibaro-double-switch-2-gen5?utm_campaign=order-confirmation-email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=product&utm_term=link&utm_source=OrderlyEmails All 230v stuff. So! The wiring to the wire centre and pump seems simple enough, as does to the actuators. The fibaro double relay confuses me though on how this is wired to the wiring centre It's 1 fibaro for 2 zones as it's a double relay N to neutral obviously L to live Both the above on fibaro and wiring centre zone input Q1 to SL 1 for zone 1 Q2 to SL 2 for zone 2 That in essence it? Assuming that's correct I presume I should take 1 mains input to some kind of multi connector so that each fibaro comes off that; any suggestions what is best to use for that? Just a standard terminal block? Any advice or fear welcome! Edited January 1, 2021 by pocster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted January 1, 2021 Author Share Posted January 1, 2021 Perhaps some kind of Wago junction box??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 (edited) Deleted my reply as I'm gong to have to read the figaro manual. Edited January 1, 2021 by Temp 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted January 1, 2021 Author Share Posted January 1, 2021 2 minutes ago, Temp said: Not quite sure what you are asking but i would put the a figaro relay in series with each room stats. So the signal from the stat only gets passed to the wiring centre if the relay is energised. Room stat .... figaro relay contacts... ... wiring centre stat input I'm not quite sure what I'm asking either! ? ( I think it's called 'post and see if someone thinks it's wrong' ) Just checking I've got the basics correct. Currently no room stats. Will have z wave aeotec sensors in each room which inturn via the HA server would operate the appropriate fibaro relay switch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 IMHO you are over complicating it. Just wire the room stats direct to the UFH controller and the UFH controller direct to the manifold actuators and manifold pump. To try and insert HA in between those bits will end up with a system nobody but you understands. If you want the HA to control temperatures then have programable room thermostats that talk to your HA to say when and what temperature to demand. You could if you want have a master on /off controlled by your HA to turn on the power to the UFH controller so your HA could act as the time clock. The UFH controller will have a "call for heat" output. Connect that to your heat source, again I do not see the HA has any part to play in that connection. P.S I wish you had asked first, I have had bad results with those UFH actuators, I very much prefer the ones where the bit that screws onto the manifold is a metal thread, not plastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted January 1, 2021 Author Share Posted January 1, 2021 14 minutes ago, ProDave said: IMHO you are over complicating it. Just wire the room stats direct to the UFH controller and the UFH controller direct to the manifold actuators and manifold pump. To try and insert HA in between those bits will end up with a system nobody but you understands. If you want the HA to control temperatures then have programable room thermostats that talk to your HA to say when and what temperature to demand. You could if you want have a master on /off controlled by your HA to turn on the power to the UFH controller so your HA could act as the time clock. The UFH controller will have a "call for heat" output. Connect that to your heat source, again I do not see the HA has any part to play in that connection. P.S I wish you had asked first, I have had bad results with those UFH actuators, I very much prefer the ones where the bit that screws onto the manifold is a metal thread, not plastic. Thanks Those actuators were recommended by the UHF/ASHP installer - whom inturn has been recommended on here. I'll go with them and see how good/crap they are. Nobody but me understands it anyway! ?. I didn't really want a room stat per room on the wall. What I can do easily is have a room stat on iphone/ipad etc.- so it's part of the HA and accessible ( but yes, when it goes wrong/fails no-one can fix it apart from me ). Indeed SWMBO has already said "If you die how will I control the in room music?" ; I think if I die opening the front door and turning the heating on will be bigger issues ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted January 1, 2021 Author Share Posted January 1, 2021 @ProDave from that website which 240v actuators would you recommend instead ( didn't realise they were plastic and yes I prefer real metal ). Let me know and I'll try and get the order changed. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted January 1, 2021 Author Share Posted January 1, 2021 4 minutes ago, pocster said: @ProDave from that website which 240v actuators would you recommend instead ( didn't realise they were plastic and yes I prefer real metal ). Let me know and I'll try and get the order changed. Cheers Or indeed anyway website. Most seem to have a plastic thread. Some metal ones here https://underfloorparts.co.uk/product/watts-26lc-230v-2-wire-underfloor-heating-electrothermic-thermal-actuator/#prettyPhoto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 I like these ones https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CENTRAL-HEATING-ROOM-THERMOSTAT-WITH-MANIFOLDS-ACTUATOR-IDEAL-FOR-UFH/323866870601?hash=item4b67f84349:g:1OsAAOSwEetV8s17 Sold there as a package but available on their own for about £10 each. I have to dash no so no time to search for them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 (edited) Ok so I've had a look at the Fibaro manual here.. https://manuals.fibaro.com/content/manuals/en/FGS-2x4/FGS-2x4-T-EN-1.0.pdf It has two relay outputs (Q1 and Q2) but the other relay terminals inputs appear to be connected together internally to the IN terminal. That makes it slightly more difficult to use both channels but not impossible. I think it would be necessary to use Room Thermostats that have volt free relay contacts (eg not the stat shown on the Heatmiser wiring diagram you posted as that only has a switched live output). Firstly I would power both the Fibaro and the room stat from the wiring centre L & N. The control signal path I would wire up as follows. The basic logic pathway would be... Live > Fibaro > Room Stat > Wiring Centre > Actuator Wiring would be.. 1) L on Wiring Centre ------> Fibaro IN (Can be a jumper/link at the Fibrao) 2) Fibaro Q1 output -------> Stat 1 Relay Input 3) Stat 1 Relay Output ------> Switched Live 1 on WC Then for the other channel just need 4) Fibaro Q2 output -------> Stat 2 Relay Input 5) Stat 2 Relay Output ------> Switched Live 2 on WC In operation this would mean that the UFH Loop actuator would only be enabled when both the Fibaro AND the room stat call for heat. I assume you would never want the Fibaro to over rule the room stat and call for heat when room stat was already satisfied. The opposite is possible (eg Fibaro turn off heat when stat isn't satisfied). Edited January 1, 2021 by Temp 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 Occurs to me that for the above to be possible you may need more wires to the room stat than planned. L & N to power the stat then wires 2) and 3) above. That's a 4 core and earth rather than a three core and earth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted January 1, 2021 Author Share Posted January 1, 2021 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Temp said: Ok so I've had a look at the Fibaro manual here.. https://manuals.fibaro.com/content/manuals/en/FGS-2x4/FGS-2x4-T-EN-1.0.pdf It has two relay outputs (Q1 and Q2) but the other relay terminals inputs appear to be connected together internally to the IN terminal. That makes it slightly more difficult to use both channels but not impossible. I think it would be necessary to use Room Thermostats that have volt free relay contacts (eg not the stat shown on the Heatmiser wiring diagram you posted as that only has a switched live output). Firstly I would power both the Fibaro and the room stat from the wiring centre L & N. The control signal path I would wire up as follows. The basic logic pathway would be... Live > Fibaro > Room Stat > Wiring Centre > Actuator Wiring would be.. 1) L on Wiring Centre ------> Fibaro IN (Can be a jumper/link at the Fibrao) 2) Fibaro Q1 output -------> Stat 1 Relay Input 3) Stat 1 Relay Output ------> Switched Live 1 on WC Then for the other channel just need 4) Fibaro Q2 output -------> Stat 2 Relay Input 5) Stat 2 Relay Output ------> Switched Live 2 on WC In operation this would mean that the UFH Loop actuator would only be enabled when both the Fibaro AND the room stat call for heat. I assume you would never want the Fibaro to over rule the room stat and call for heat when room stat was already satisfied. The opposite is possible (eg Fibaro turn off heat when stat isn't satisfied). There is no room stat connected ; it's a wireless device. So the HA would simply ( wirelessly ) trigger the Fibaro. My potentially flawed logic was the fibaro acts as the room stat i.e. just switches the actuator on/off via the writing centre. For the moment I just want to wirelessly control the fibaro which intern activates the actuator. Actually adjusting to temperature/usage of the room etc. I'll add later. Edited January 1, 2021 by pocster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted January 1, 2021 Author Share Posted January 1, 2021 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Temp said: In operation this would mean that the UFH Loop actuator would only be enabled when both the Fibaro AND the room stat call for heat. I assume you would never want the Fibaro to over rule the room stat and call for heat when room stat was already satisfied. The opposite is possible (eg Fibaro turn off heat when stat isn't satisfied). Yes. So my wireless sensor somewhere reports the temperature to HA. Simple code for HA to signal appropriate fibaro to activate actuator via wiring centre ( which in turn operates the pump ). I suppose in theory I don't really need the wiring centre - I could manage the pump on/off simply based actuators active or not. But I think the wiring centre makes it neater. Re-read your original response @Temp and yes Fibaro's powered off wiring centre. Also, I see 4 core + earth . As 1 fibaro will need L,N,E,S1,S2 Edited January 1, 2021 by pocster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted January 1, 2021 Author Share Posted January 1, 2021 35 minutes ago, ProDave said: I like these ones https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CENTRAL-HEATING-ROOM-THERMOSTAT-WITH-MANIFOLDS-ACTUATOR-IDEAL-FOR-UFH/323866870601?hash=item4b67f84349:g:1OsAAOSwEetV8s17 Sold there as a package but available on their own for about £10 each. I have to dash no so no time to search for them. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ACTUATOR-FOR-UNDERFLOOR-HEATING-MANIFOLD-230V-2W/322000676572?_trkparms=aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20200520130048%26meid%3D4e57802ebc61451ca437e8e9536f7f8e%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D12%26mehot%3Dpf%26sd%3D322000682302%26itm%3D322000676572%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DSimplAMLv5PairwiseWebWithDarwoV3BBEV2b&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851 These? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 48 minutes ago, pocster said: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ACTUATOR-FOR-UNDERFLOOR-HEATING-MANIFOLD-230V-2W/322000676572?_trkparms=aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20200520130048%26meid%3D4e57802ebc61451ca437e8e9536f7f8e%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D12%26mehot%3Dpf%26sd%3D322000682302%26itm%3D322000676572%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DSimplAMLv5PairwiseWebWithDarwoV3BBEV2b&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851 These? cheap wax cap tat Get self balancing motorised ones from Wunda and do it properly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted January 1, 2021 Author Share Posted January 1, 2021 3 minutes ago, PeterW said: cheap wax cap tat Get sled balancing motorised ones from Wunda and do it properly. But @ProDave said these. ?? Also with motorised how do I open and close ? I assume they don’t auto close on loss of power ( some spring solenoid type thing ) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 53 minutes ago, pocster said: There is no room stat connected ; it's a wireless device. So the HA would simply ( wirelessly ) trigger the Fibaro. Ok if the room temperature will be monitored by a separate HA wireless device I don't see the problem its as you said.. 2 hours ago, pocster said: N to neutral obviously L to live Both the above on fibaro and wiring centre zone input Q1 to SL 1 for zone 1 Q2 to SL 2 for zone 2 That in essence it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 10 minutes ago, pocster said: But @ProDave said these. ?? Also with motorised how do I open and close ? I assume they don’t auto close on loss of power ( some spring solenoid type thing ) . yes as soon as power goes they return to closed. Continual auto balancing to keep flow and return at a 7°C delta and near instant opening. Wax cap ones take up to 2-3 minutes to open and close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted January 1, 2021 Author Share Posted January 1, 2021 5 minutes ago, PeterW said: yes as soon as power goes they return to closed. Continual auto balancing to keep flow and return at a 7°C delta and near instant opening. Wax cap ones take up to 2-3 minutes to open and close. Ok - any particular recommendations? Appreciate they open / close quicker but as my slab will take hours to adjust to any change what other advantages do they have ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted January 1, 2021 Author Share Posted January 1, 2021 6 minutes ago, pocster said: Ok - any particular recommendations? Appreciate they open / close quicker but as my slab will take hours to adjust to any change what other advantages do they have ?? @PeterW https://www.wundatrade.co.uk/shop/home/quick-shop/wundatherm-quick-shop/controls-quickshop/actuator-auto-balancing/# Be ok with my wiring centre ?? ( I can cancel that if need be ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 You’ve bought the integrated Heatmiser system - why..?? That wiring centre isn’t dumb so you’re going to have issues with the Fibaro I reckon - you just needed a really basic wiring centre as that has loads of built in functions that you will need to override. Have you installed it ..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 25 minutes ago, PeterW said: You’ve bought the integrated Heatmiser system - why..?? That wiring centre isn’t dumb so you’re going to have issues with the Fibaro I reckon - you just needed a really basic wiring centre as that has loads of built in functions that you will need to override. Have you installed it ..? It looks virtually identical to my Heatmiser wiring centre and isn't complicated. Nothing in it to program or override. For example the timer stuff mentioned in the manual needs a separate time clock that does all that stuff. If you don't have that timer the wiring Centre itself is basically just a big OR gate to control the pump. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 7 minutes ago, Temp said: It looks virtually identical to my Heatmiser wiring centre and isn't complicated. Nothing in it to program or override. For example the timer stuff mentioned in the manual needs a separate time clock that does all that stuff. If you don't have that timer the wiring Centre itself is basically just a big OR gate to control the pump. Not how I read this ..? On board the UH8 are two heating time channels, each zone allows you to specify which time channel it should follow. 2 additional time channel connections are provided for hot water control or other auxiliary devices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 (edited) 15 minutes ago, PeterW said: Not how I read this ..? On board the UH8 are two heating time channels, each zone allows you to specify which time channel it should follow. 2 additional time channel connections are provided for hot water control or other auxiliary devices. Clever marketing I'm afraid. The "channels" are just wires inside the wiring centre. They go from clock inputs to the connectors for the room stats. No timer inside. Some people will have one time clock connected to the wiring centre so they would connect all stats to the ?1 pin. Others want upstairs and downstairs to be controlled by different clocks so the upstairs stats might be connected to the ?1 pin and downstairs to the ?2 pin. If you have fully programmable room stats with built in timers (like me) or a HA system you just ignore those clock terminals and connect the stats/Fibaro to L&N. Edited January 1, 2021 by Temp 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 And that’s why I steer well clear of that brand ..!!! So £75 gets this, when you can get the same functions for half that without the HM sticker on it ... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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