ZacP Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 We've definitely decided on ICF external walls, but what is the thinking for for internal walls? Do we continue to use the uninsulated blocks from our ICF supplier and pump more concrete into them or just build in block? Obviously the non-structural walls can be stud (timber or metal - yet to be decided!). What has everyone else gone for? Also, internal floors. Found out about lewis decks this week (thanks to BH!). Seems like a great combination between the ease of engineered (pozi) joists and strength of beam/block. This may be a questions for our SE but has anyone used a lewis deck with engineered joist or similar and therefore how did you attach the joists to the walls? I'm guessing a standard wall plate wouldn't be enough (4m span). Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vijay Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 Didn't see the point in having thicker ICF internal walls. I'm doing block on top of a layer of Marmox Thermoblock for a thermal break for my internal load bearing and timber for the others Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russell griffiths Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 If you have a team putting up the icf then you could just use that as no other trades involved, or you will need bricklayers t build them up in blockwork, if you have a contractor that does both then no problem. I have two internal load bearing walls of icf, so in effect have a house inside a house, the feel to this inner area is just silent as it’s isolated from the outside on two sides. I thought about it for weeks and weeks what to use and in the end got fed up of trying to work out the cost difference, in the grand scheme of things you either buy more icf or you pay a bricky. trying to work out if one is £500 cheaper I think is a waste of effort, there are some big cost differences that are glaringly obvious, these are the ones to concentrate on. Lewis deck with screed on top will be substantially more money than joists and chipboard flooring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZacP Posted November 24, 2020 Author Share Posted November 24, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Russell griffiths said: Lewis deck with screed on top will be substantially more money than joists and chipboard flooring. Yes, but still cheeper then beam and block? Still trying to workout how to get underfloor heating upstairs... It's an upside down house so want the floors upstairs nice and toasty! Edited November 24, 2020 by ZacP SPG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russell griffiths Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 Have you priced beam n block, I found it to be one thing I brought that surprised me how cheap it was. But you would need mechanical handling to get it in place. Have you looked at lewis deck on steel joists as opposed to timber, I think that’s how I would do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZacP Posted November 25, 2020 Author Share Posted November 25, 2020 11 hours ago, Russell griffiths said: Have you priced beam n block, I found it to be one thing I brought that surprised me how cheap it was. But you would need mechanical handling to get it in place. Have you looked at lewis deck on steel joists as opposed to timber, I think that’s how I would do it. Haven’t fully priced it no. It’s only around 32sqm so not massive but still want to get it right! With beam and block how do you run ducting for MVHR and install things like recessed spotlights? Hadn’t considered steel joists. The reason I thought engineered joists would work would be because of the ease of installation and also running cables, pipes and ducting. Same issues as beam and block? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russell griffiths Posted November 25, 2020 Share Posted November 25, 2020 You need to allow for a suspended ceiling underneath the block n beam, the type of thing that is metal track work with plasterboard screwed to it, not ceiling tiles like an office. All services get hung underneath and then hidden, where as you poke the services through the posi joists. With such a small area you can choose whatever you want really but you won’t want to bring in a forklift for an hours job. You can step out the concrete in your block wall to sit joists on, or use a larger width block for lower down, then fill with concrete, then fit joists, then step back in to a standard block for upper storey. I wouldn't want to hang joists from a ledger board unless it is built into the wall rather than hung from the wall on bolts. Lots of vids on YouTube. Look at other manufacturers for ideas, some companies internet profile is terrible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Jones Posted November 25, 2020 Share Posted November 25, 2020 1st floor block and beam ceiling ? why ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted November 25, 2020 Share Posted November 25, 2020 If you’re going ICF for the outer walls then consider concrete plank floors for the first floor deck. Same lifting issues as beams, but much nicer to work on once they are in. Some suppliers do a semi insulated one, others do them with service tracks built in. Other “off the wall” option would be beam with EPS such as Jetfloor. Beams would need lifting but could be done with a Telehandler, but the foam blocks would be easy and quick for your deck plus the benefit with the UFH above. Could just then pour a self compacting concrete when you do a second or top lift on the ICF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZacP Posted November 25, 2020 Author Share Posted November 25, 2020 5 minutes ago, Dave Jones said: 1st floor block and beam ceiling ? why ? We have a lower ground floor and an upper ground floor so it does get confusing. I’m asking about the structure between these that creates a floor to the upper ground floor and a ceiling to the lower ground floor. Hope that clarifies! The ceilings above the upper ground floor will be either vaulted, flat plastered or exposed joists depending on where you are in the building. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Jones Posted November 25, 2020 Share Posted November 25, 2020 just trying to work out why you would want block and beam for an internal ceiling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZacP Posted November 25, 2020 Author Share Posted November 25, 2020 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Dave Jones said: just trying to work out why you would want block and beam for an internal ceiling. Well it’s the ceiling in one room and the floor of another. Means the whole floor is structural and any future changes can be done with no worries as to where the structural walls are. Also significant reduction in sound transmission and the spongy feeling that can happen with some timber structures. With young kids that run scream and jump a lot this is an important decision for us to get right. Perhaps @Russell griffiths could chip in with why he decided to go beam and block. Edited November 25, 2020 by ZacP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZacP Posted November 25, 2020 Author Share Posted November 25, 2020 23 minutes ago, PeterW said: If you’re going ICF for the outer walls then consider concrete plank floors for the first floor deck. Same lifting issues as beams, but much nicer to work on once they are in. Some suppliers do a semi insulated one, others do them with service tracks built in. Other “off the wall” option would be beam with EPS such as Jetfloor. Beams would need lifting but could be done with a Telehandler, but the foam blocks would be easy and quick for your deck plus the benefit with the UFH above. Could just then pour a self compacting concrete when you do a second or top lift on the ICF. Thanks @PeterW, I’ll look into this. Only issue we have is getting things like telehandlers etc onto site anything we do will have to be done by hand as much as possible. We haven’t sorted the access for anything larger then a person with a wheelbarrow yet. The parking and site are on totally different levels and concrete can get pumped easily, but no space for a crane etc. Light is king hence the engineered joist and lewis deck idea. ‘Easy’ to install! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted November 25, 2020 Share Posted November 25, 2020 10 minutes ago, ZacP said: Light is king hence the engineered joist and lewis deck idea. ‘Easy’ to install! What is your maximum span again ..? 4m..?? That’s about 150kg per beam which is manageable but I wouldn’t want to move many..! Cranes can reach a very long way when used correctly and save huge amounts of time - I have seen them used to swing panels into back garden plots over a row of houses. 15 minutes ago, ZacP said: We haven’t sorted the access for anything larger then a person with a wheelbarrow yet. How are you planning on digging foundations then ..?? Not by hand I hope .... ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russell griffiths Posted November 25, 2020 Share Posted November 25, 2020 I think looking at your site the Lewis deck on posi joists is the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russell griffiths Posted November 25, 2020 Share Posted November 25, 2020 @ZacP site is just down the road from me @PeterW a mountain goat with a spade is his best bet for footings. A crane is completely out of the question, it’s definitely a job for a lightweight hand movable solution its in an area that the clutch on my truck starts to break out in a sweat if I type the address in the sat nav. . But cracking views across the valley. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Jones Posted November 25, 2020 Share Posted November 25, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, ZacP said: Well it’s the ceiling in one room and the floor of another. Means the whole floor is structural and any future changes can be done with no worries as to where the structural walls are. Also significant reduction in sound transmission and the spongy feeling that can happen with some timber structures. With young kids that run scream and jump a lot this is an important decision for us to get right. Perhaps @Russell griffiths could chip in with why he decided to go beam and block. spongy ? Don't think you have jumped on a block and beam floor. They bounce a LOT more than a pozi joist floor. I think you are confused by structural. Just because you have block and beam floor doesnt mean you can just drop walls ontop of it. It would have to have walls underneath to hold them. This is why its normal to use joists or pozi's and then stud onto them. I'd get some advice before you make a big mistake. Edited November 25, 2020 by Dave Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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