Planning a shower room for parents

[Vijay]

After a bit of a chat with Mum, she's ruled out walk in baths just for the fact that you have to fill them only once you're in and let them empty before you can get out. I also don't like that in an emergency, she couldn't just get out of a walk in bath until the water has drained.

 

So, hoping to take her to a bathroom showroom sometime this week, but a large shower is the way it's looking.

 

A couple of questions:

 

Is easy clean glass worth the extra money and does it really work?

Sliding or pivot door on the shower?

Would a digital shower be easier for an elderly person? They have a combi boiler, so water is a pretty consistent temp/pressure  unless obviously another tap is turned on.

Tiles or wall panels for the shower area? I think I've read here that wall panels are much easier for cleaning and no grout lines to keep clean.

Would UFH be a good idea to keep the floor dry and reduce any slipping accidents?

 

I'll definitely have seating inside and outside the shower, really like the idea of a bench that doubles up as they dirty washing basket too

[Ferdinand]

1 hour ago, Vijay said:

After a bit of a chat with Mum, she's ruled out walk in baths just for the fact that you have to fill them only once you're in and let them empty before you can get out. I also don't like that in an emergency, she couldn't just get out of a walk in bath until the water has drained.

 

So, hoping to take her to a bathroom showroom sometime this week, but a large shower is the way it's looking.

 

Good.

 

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A couple of questions:

Big couple ?

 

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Is easy clean glass worth the extra money and does it really work?

TBH dunno. No idea whether I even have it in mine. If the routine is to clean after each shower, or by a regular cleaner, or if your water is soft then perhaps not. Unless it is only a few £££.. 

 

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Sliding or pivot door on the shower?

Get your mum to experiment. I say walk in and no  door.

 

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Would a digital shower be easier for an elderly person? They have a combi boiler, so water is a pretty consistent temp/pressure  unless obviously another tap is turned on.

I say go trad. Mine is a double shower - wand and overhead, at under £100, and it has a "stop" at a comfortable temp but which can be overcome. Details in the post series you already know about.

 

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Tiles or wall panels for the shower area? I think I've read here that wall panels are much easier for cleaning and no grout lines to keep clean.

I say good quality wall panels. Just think about your handrails and seat which need a full 75mm in the brick or block, on top of all the framing and panels on top.

 

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Would UFH be a good idea to keep the floor dry and reduce any slipping accidents?

UFH is good, and electric ufh if you are not building a slab is cheap, thin and and works, and no reason not to have it. But I'd say that your floortile texture will have more impact on slipperiness. Usually it will be made slippery by someone coming out of their shower, so will be unlinkely to go back in before it has dried in the ventilation. But ufh will still help it dry.

 

(Might be different for two people)

 

In my 2 showers, one floor tile was specified as "anti slip", and has a fairly pronounced texture. The other was just selected from the standard range as one of the matt textured options, and feels rough. The anti slip is a little more time consuming to clean (steamer helps), but you want the right product. You need a couple of samples, make them wet, and get your parents to test them.
 

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@AliG

Being able to do things with one hand is very important. I'd certainly be considering a rail next to the WC and possibly in the shower. The shower seat is definitely the simple option, from speaking to my parents the issue is simply getting them to admit that they might need something like that.

1 hour ago, Vijay said:

 

I'll definitely have seating inside and outside the shower, really like the idea of a bench that doubles up as they dirty washing basket too

 

These are the grab rails in mine, and there are couple of fold down trombones by the loo now too - if they are not frail I would leave space to add these later as they are the bit that says "frail" most clearly. Need to think about getting around as well as the shower itself.

 

The rail  on the right on the shower entry is not one I would use, but I was reusing an existing screen and it was attached.

 

Take care to get a shower seat they won't slip off (and fit a way to recover in case they do),  and that they can use  the shower comfortably whilst sitting on the seat.

 

 

The weakest point here is the step into the shower, but I was not going to dig up the concrete slab.

 

F

 

 

 

Edited October 11, 2020 by Ferdinand

[Nickfromwales]

Pivot doors are the anti-Christ. Avoid like the plague. 
Depends on dexterity, but if you choose a slider with a big D shaped handle that should be robust, trouble-free and not leak one drop. 
Can’t speak for easy clean results as I typically fit these and then bugger off to the next job  

[Vijay]

I don't think 1600 is big enough for a fixed panel walk in shower. I'd guess an opening of 600 would leave 1m of enclosed area and if you have a seat there and a shower splashing, I can't help feeling water would splash out.

Deffo looking at a hand wand and overhead for flexibility and making cleaning easier.

 

I will be talking to them about hand/grab rails. Mum was totally against one being installed on the stairs when she had heart surgery a few years back, but now totally appreciates the reason for them being there. I know my Dad will need them more than ever, but I don't speak to him so will have to fit them where I think he needs them.

 

15 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Pivot doors are the anti-Christ. Avoid like the plague. 
Depends on dexterity, but if you choose a slider with a big D shaped handle that should be robust, trouble-free and not leak one drop. 
Can’t speak for easy clean results as I typically fit these and then bugger off to the next job  

I've got a pivot door on my shower enclosure, why do you say they are the anti christ?? lol 

 

We popped into B&Q just to have a physical look and they had a slider that Mum liked straight away. The only issue was the opening was pretty small, so maybe I might be able to find one that gives a large enough opening for them.

 

On the subject of sliding shower doors, if they are hung/slide on the top, do they come frame-less on the bottom? So the shower tray would be the only step?

[Ferdinand]

Mine is 1370mm toto, with an opening of 480mm, which is tight. Position of shower head and trajectory of water is key.

 

If you have more room then all the better, but remember that you will need to take up some of your space to fit the shower gubbins, and that you need to make it maintainable without dismantling the whole thing. Slightly more thought needed if it is in an alcove.

 

Imo important with panels to have the last panel as the one that allows total access to the gubbins, not the first ?. Or potentially you may have to dismantle all of them to find a leak.

 

I had to allow space at the end for a pair of stop valves since the self- builder who did the room as a bathroom did not have them anywhere else. That cost be about 150 mm off the length.

 

The issue I have with shower doors is that there is no need for them and the moving parts or runners break and/or turn into gunge traps, so it ends up with the feel of a communal shower room in the YMCA.

 

 

 

F

Edited October 11, 2020 by Ferdinand

[Vijay]

56 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

Mine is 1370mm toto, with an opening of 480mm, which is tight. Position of shower head and trajectory of water is key.

 

If you have more room then all the better, but remember that you will need to take up some of your space to fit the shower gubbins, and that you need to make it maintainable without dismantling the whole thing. Slightly more thought needed if it is in an alcove.

 

Imo important with panels to have the last panel as the one that allows total access to the gubbins, not the first ?. Or potentially you may have to dismantle all of them to find a leak.

 

I had to allow space at the end for a pair of stop valves since the self- builder who did the room as a bathroom did not have them anywhere else. That cost be about 150 mm off the length.

 

The issue I have with shower doors is that there is no need for them and the moving parts or runners break and/or turn into gunge traps, so it ends up with the feel of a communal shower room in the YMCA.

 

So you have 890 of actual enclosed space? Do you get water splashing out at all?  I might be able to flip the position of the shower and get an 1800 opening but that might not be possible due to the height of the waste pipe (very difficult to work things out when there's a bathroom fitted)

 

I'm trying to work out the best door/shower head/shower control positions, with ideally the controls near the door/opening and away from the shower spray.

 

I do get your point about shower doors and ideally it would be a simple walk in shower, but hesitant with only 1600mm to play with.

 

It does sound like wall panels are the way to go (if my Mum likes them), but if she wanted tiled, would I need to tank/waterproof the walls at all? I never have in normal shower enclosures before and never had an issue.

[joe90]

Mine is 1200 x 800 with a flipper panel (hinged) very little water escapes as the flipper panel stops water Tracking out the end.

[Vijay]

Is the flipper panel the small panel at the end of the enclosure?

[joe90]

7 minutes ago, Vijay said:

Is the flipper panel the small panel at the end of the enclosure?

Yes, works quite well and got them in both bathrooms, initially I wanted a door but really glad I didn’t now.

[Vijay]

Something else I'll look into if it gives her options

Edited October 11, 2020 by Vijay

[joe90]

I have installed these fir people in the past, any water getting past the flipper panel caught in the extended tray area which can double as a drying (dripping) area. Just need a towel radiator at the end so you can reach a warm towel from the shower!!!

[Vijay]

Guys, really need your thoughts and advice on this bathroom. Had a massive holdup, as had to do some other urgent work on my parents house..............

 

Here is my first ever attempt on sketchup of a layout I've done and shown my Mum (who has the final say lol) It's given her an idea of how it would look and she's happy.

 

She likes the idea of a shower tray over a wetfloor and also seems sold on a sliding door for the shower (but a fixed panel with flipper/swivel door isn't ruled out)

 

It's been years since I've fitted a shower and things have moved on with tanking needing to be done now. Before I start pulling apart their bathroom and removing the wall (currently between the bathroom and shower), I need to find out a few things.

 

I assume the walls are plastered/rendered under the tiles, so do I need to board them before I tank the walls, or can I tank directly on to walls once I've removed tiles/old adhesive? She likes the idea of wall panels as the finish (if that makes a difference over tiles) but that isn't confirmed as so much is closed and difficult to take her to see panels/tiles.

 

Any ideas/thoughts on how you would place the shower controls and heads (overhead and a handheld). I need to have a seating area within the shower, which will either be a fold down seat or possibly a fixed bench type seat. The shower area will be approx 1600x800. I still like the idea of a remote fixed control for the shower so they can turn it on before getting in, but I know that will depend on the shower they decide on.

 

 

Edited February 3, 2021 by Vijay

[AliG]

Every time I have taken tiles off a wall it has destroyed the plasterboard, but maybe it can be done more carefully. I am not sure what will happen on the block wall, depends on if it was plastered first which you won't know until you take off the tiles.

 

I would assume that you would want the shower head to be on the end of the shower opposite the small window.

 

A lot depends on the kind of shower valve you use.

 

With a surface mounted valve you could just have the head on a rail which can be taken off. This is the simplest installation which plenty of people are happy with but I personally don't like.

 

If you use a valve sunk into the wall then the valve and heads can be in different places which means you can turn it on without getting wet. The problem with this is that it won't be easy to sink it into the block wall, the valves are usually about 70mm deep, so you would either have to frame out that wall and lose some space or put it in the exterior wall below the window which is also not ideal. Even then you would need to get the pipes from the valve to the head at the other end which means either chasing them into the block wall or framing it out again.

 

I would probably put whatever valve you want where the door is being blocked up and just accept the getting wet which isn't the end of the world. I have some showers where this happens and some where it doesn't it really isn't that big a problem. Most showers are installed this way. That wall will presumably be a nice new stud wall where it is easy to route the pipes.

 

 

[Ferdinand]

Where are your mobility aids going to be when required?

 

Need to plan the whole schmozzle now.

 

eg There is no easy way to put a Hitler Trombone next to that loo, other than across the front.

[AliG]

1 hour ago, Ferdinand said:

eg There is no easy way to put a Hitler Trombone next to that loo, other than across the front.

Very good point, would the toilet be better closer to the wall so a grab handle could be installed if necessary?

[Ferdinand]

You could do that. It needs 90-100mm of screw in something really solid, plus plaster, plus tile etc. (not 60-70mm)

 

But do you then have room to park a wheelchair next to it should someone wish to transfer sideways ??

 

It needs a list of what aids you will want, and an extra layer on the thinking to find what best meets your goals overall.

[Vijay]

Ideally I think having the shower opening at the right (as you looked at the shower enclosure) would be best, the reason being space as you get in/out of the shower. That would mean the shower heads at the window end. The window sill is 1.5 from floor level, so I wondered if the sills (slight slope) and reveals were done properly/watertight, could the shower heads work at that end?   

 

In terms of heads, ideally want duel, so one on a rail than can be removed and handheld, then a ceiling one. But to be honest, I think my parents would mostly just use the handheld shower head.

 

That answers another question I pondered, about valve depth if sunken controls. Totally agree it would have to be on the door end or external wall end

 

You are right about the door being a stud wall so anything would be easier to run in that

 

 

@Ferdinand I have absolutely no idea what you mean by a Hitler trombone???? lol

 

 

3 hours ago, AliG said:

Very good point, would the toilet be better closer to the wall so a grab handle could be installed if necessary?

Absolutely what I planned. The toilet seat edge would be approx 400mm from the wall. I've sat on my loo and pondered if that would still work or slightly too far away. At present my Dad uses a frame to get on/off the toilet cos of his knees. I'm not sure a handle would help anyway, he may need to continue using the frame as that allows him to use upper strength to stand straight up. If that was the case, having a space a the side of the toilet for the frame out be better.....................

 

 

2 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

You could do that. It needs 90-100mm of screw in something really solid, plus plaster, plus tile etc. (not 60-70mm)

 

But do you then have room to park a wheelchair next to it should someone wish to transfer sideways ??

 

It needs a list of what aids you will want, and an extra layer on the thinking to find what best meets your goals overall.

 

It's an external wall, so I'm sure I could get a good fixing for any handles/rails/supports.

 

I genuinely think if either of them were to become wheelchair bound, the whole house wouldn't suit them. The bathroom is upstairs, so they would surely need a bath/shower room downstairs anyway?

 

I do totally see your point about possibilities and trying to think ahead.................

Edited February 4, 2021 by Vijay

[Ferdinand]

One of these.

 

Seig: *

 

 

Hiel:

 

 

"Folding Support Rail" is too boring.

 

F

 

* Sorry for spelling - need to slug that particular search  ?.

 

 

 

 

[Vijay]

lol I see why you nicknamed it

[Ferdinand]

37 minutes ago, Vijay said:

Ideally I think having the shower opening at the right (as you looked at the shower enclosure) would be best, the reason being space as you get in/out of the shower. That would mean the shower heads at the window end. The window sill is 1.5 from floor level, so I wondered if the sills (slight slope) and reveals were done properly/watertight, could the shower heads work at that end?   

 

In terms of heads, ideally want duel, so one on a rail than can be removed and handheld, then a ceiling one. But to be honest, I think my parents would mostly just use the handheld shower head.

 

That answers another question I pondered, about valve depth if sunken controls. Totally agree it would have to be on the door end or external wall end

 

You are right about the door being a stud wall so anything would be easier to run in that

 

 

@Ferdinand I have absolutely no idea what you mean by a Hitler trombone???? lol

 

 

Absolutely what I planned. The toilet seat edge would be approx 400mm from the wall. I've sat on my loo and pondered if that would still work or slightly too far away. At present my Dad uses a frame to get on/off the toilet cos of his knees. I'm not sure a handle would help anyway, he may need to continue using the frame as that allows him to use upper strength to stand straight up. If that was the case, having a space a the side of the toilet for the frame out be better.....................

 

 

 

It's an external wall, so I'm sure I could get a good fixing for any handles/rails/supports.

 

I genuinely think if either of them were to become wheelchair bound, the whole house wouldn't suit them. The bathroom is upstairs, so they would surely need a bath/shower room downstairs anyway?

 

I do totally see your point about possibilities and trying to think ahead.................

 

Can I suggest that you print off my series of articles linked above, and go through with a highlighter to emphasise stuff that may be relevant, and skim the linked threads.

 

I know  that is being a bit egocentric, but we did do a reasonably thorough job and looked at most aspects, including sources.

 

The advantage of a fixed frame is that it is fixed - and if he is using some variety of walking frame that can unbalance. Reduces ways of falling by one.

 

You can also get stuff on free loan from the Red Cross or sometime social services (social services do an assessment, and tell you whether they can supply it or if the RC do). That can include a more stable sort of frame that fits over your loo:

 

 

 

Or stuff can be floor mounted:

 

 

Be aware that having an unusually shaped loo seat can make it more difficult to get things that fit.

 

The advantage of a 2 way shower is that they get an extra hand free on the rainfall one.

 

No need to be obsessive, just go far enough so that you are satisfied.

[AliG]

1 hour ago, Vijay said:

deally I think having the shower opening at the right (as you looked at the shower enclosure) would be best, the reason being space as you get in/out of the shower. That would mean the shower heads at the window end. The window sill is 1.5 from floor level, so I wondered if the sills (slight slope) and reveals were done properly/watertight, could the shower heads work at that end?   

 

I did think that without the window there is more room on the right hadn't side opposite the sink as opposed to the toilet.

 

It is certainly doable to waterproof around the window, I have seen it done. It just looks a bit not quite right.

 

Our shower heads are set 2m above floor level, which would put you in the middle of the window. You could set one above the window, but thinking about everything maybe a better solution is to put the valve whee the door is and then route the pipework up into the ceiling and mount the shower head there. Is there access to the ceiling above? You could then take another pipe across and down past the window to mount the handheld head under the window. This way you don't lose any space where the block wall is.You could chase that into the wall but if you are going over the top anyway this seems more straightforward.

 

If your dad already has to use a frame to get up off the toilet then he presumably might need help getting up off a shower seat.

 

I found some advice here, but I do think @Ferdinand is right. If you are already at this stage things will probably continue to get more difficult and you need to consider what might be needed. At 800mm wide you are tight for width for seats and I would make sure it all fitted together. I would seriously be considering a total wet room and no screen which would be much easier to move around in. This would still be the shower area and most of the water would be there, but glass showerscreens and unsteady older people is something t think about. I know my parents are now quite wary.

 

https://www.nrshealthcare.co.uk/articles/buying-guides/choose-right-shower-seat-2

Edited February 4, 2021 by AliG

[Vijay]

@Ferdinand not egocentric at all mate, loads of useful information there and different angles to look at things

 

@AliG you're totally right about the plumbing on the window side, could/would be a total headache. I'm going to get into the loft tomorrow, but I believe access from the ceiling wouldn't be an issue.

 

My Mum is adamant that she doesn't want or like a total wetroom BUT I managed to find a good showroom near me that she could see screens with open access, so she's happy to lose the shower door. She has also seen how nice a tiled level floor can look, so the seed is planted for losing the shower tray and having it flush. The guy in the showroom was very helpful, he agrees with Nick of no less than 1200 for the glass at a minimum, with a 600 opening. This would mean moving the room around again and having the shower on the left where I have 1800. 

 

Other thing I'm gonna look at is moving the bathroom door by losing some of the landing opening the bathroom basically into a box shape.

 

If the shower glass screen was fitted and needed to be removed in the future, could that be done? I'm thinking if in the future they needed easier access, by removing the glass it would get them a semi wetroom??

 

I've done the 2 layouts so I'd really appreciate any thoughts

Edited February 14, 2021 by Vijay

[TonyT]

Option 2

 

privacy if someone is on the pan ( and still able to go themselves)

 

waste pipe was on this side anyway so will make tying into 4” easier, no point in making unnecessary grief.

 

also gives you a bit of distance to get a fall from the shower waste to the 4”

these were all considerations when we did my folks house, old people can’t take upheaval so make it easy on yourself.

 

[Vijay]

Do you mean option 2 being on the right?

 

I'm not worried about the work mate, I'll do what ever it takes to give them a safe bathroom they can enjoy using and are safe. I live 5 minutes away now but once my house is watertight, I'm then an hour away, so it needs to be a room for the rest of their lives

[TonyT]

Yes right hand side drawing.

 Hope it all goes well