Newbie... dropped kerb issues

[Megawatt14]

Hello,

 

Ive been reading through some

posts on here with interest. New to posting on this forum and hope I haven’t put it in the wrong place. 

 

I have a kerb drop issue with the council (a Greater London one). 

 

My fiancé and I bought a semi detached house at the end of 2018. It was very run down internally and we refurbished and gutted the whole thing, extended etc and we are very proud of how it looks now. 

 

There is a front ‘garden’ area which is currently very run down because of all the building works, skips etc. but we always planned and hoped to convert it to a driveway like the semi next to us has. You would easily be able to get 2 cars on the drive.  We never thought we would encounter any issues.  Lots of the neighbours have a driveway etc. There is never any issues parking on the street, some of it is residents only and some is ticketed but you can mostly always find a spot to park near your house. It is 12 mins walk from a popular zone 6 suburb for context. 

 

Anyway long and short of it is that I went to email the relevant person today about applying for a vehicle crossover.  I didn’t do the formal process online where you pay £128 as I had his email from when I enquired when we bought the house. So I dropped him an informal email and asked when he was free to come out to assess the vehicle crossover at our home.  I was always happy to fill out the form I just wanted to keep it informal initially. 

 

Anyway he has said he would refuse our application. He sent us some guidance document via email (which is not on the council website) and said the following alongside it:

 

“I do not have any records of your application for a crossover to the property, if you had applied I would have been able to advise you that you cannot have a crossover to this property, your application would be refused. The reason is; there is a "permit parking" bay outside the property and under the 2019 policy I am unable to remove the parking bay. Prior to April 2019 under the old policy I would have been able to help by seeking an amendment to the "Traffic Order" which may have been agreed but also could have been objected to.

 

I am as keen to provide off street parking whenever possible, the permission from the surveyor is not the issue in your case., From "highways " i have a policy regarding crossovers and it does not allow removal of any parking bay.”

 

He has given me his managers email. 

 

However the guidance he attached to the email says the following:

 

Traffic Management Orders – A proposed vehicle crossover must not result in the need to

amend an existing Traffic Management Order (TMO), e.g. the removal or amendment of existing

waiting and loading restrictions, or parking bay. This includes all designated parking bays, permit

holder parking bays in Controlled Parking Zones (CPZ’s), paid for bays, marked parking bays in

areas of permitted footway parking, restricted zones, home zones, permit parking areas etc.

However each application will considered on its own merits. The full cost of amending both the

TMO and road markings should be met by an applicant. Applicants must be aware that there

could be objections to amending TMO, and objections may not be resolved.

 

this seems at odds with what he’s saying about not being able to remove the space ?

 

I basically said that none of this appears on the council website , only the checklist where one of the questions 

asks if the street is a controlled parking zone. And then it says if answering yes, the application may initially be rejected and/or delayed.  Also I mentioned that the guidance he sent over says there is a possibility of amending the TMO. And he is saying it’s a flat out no?

 

His final response when I pressed him on this said the ‘traffic order part is a bit confusing’ please email his boss who might be able to clarify. Which I have done. 

 

Can anyone help? At my wits end here we were getting quotes only last week for the driveway work and I feel like this will seriously impact our house value. So many other houses on the road have a driveway.  I know precedence means jack all in this situation , or so I am led to believe. But his emails just aren’t making sense. I’ve emailed local councillors for some guidance on this. 
 

Just wondered if anyone else has experience with this?!

What should we do

 

Edited August 25, 2020 by Megawatt14
Adding tags

[Big Jimbo]

I can't help i'm afraid, but i do know of Two people in london who were refused a crossover. The reason given was that there was not enough public parking in the street. Now both couples said "Well we park Two cars on the street, which we will be able to park off road, on the drive, and will therefore be be reducing the street parking by One car, but will be getting Two cars off the Street. Both couples had different councils, and both refused.

[Temp]

He suggests they changed policy in 2019 and no longer allow dropped kerbs to result in the loss of on street parking. Perhaps ask if the policy change was put out to consultation (if not is it a valid planning policy?). When was it ratified by the council etc

 

Perhaps you can find another policy that contradicts this one? How about finding out what their policy is on electric cars and C02 emissions? Then perhaps write to the chairman of the council and point out that this policy precludes you buying an electric car as you cannot run a cable across the kerb. 

 

 

[Ferdinand]

Try a few searches on Mumsnet to see if anyone has won the battle.  Would think there should be some London conversation there.

Edited August 25, 2020 by Ferdinand

[PeterW]

Just apply, pay the costs and also indicate you will be creating 2 spaces, one for an electric vehicle that requires a plug in space. 
 

How far outside the N/S circular are you ..? 

[Gav_P]

Is there a defined parking bay outside your house already? 
 

Why not pave your front garden anyway... the drop kerb can be done at a later date once you e figure out how to tackle the poxy planners. 
 

I certain there are some Transient individuals who would drop the curb over weekend if you were so inclined. 

[Gav_P]

1 hour ago, PeterW said:

Just apply, pay the costs and also indicate you will be creating 2 spaces, one for an electric vehicle that requires a plug in space. 
 

How far outside the N/S circular are you ..? 

Oooo yeah throw in the fact you can charge your EV car without a driveway. 

[Megawatt14]

14 hours ago, Big Jimbo said:

I can't help i'm afraid, but i do know of Two people in london who were refused a crossover. The reason given was that there was not enough public parking in the street. Now both couples said "Well we park Two cars on the street, which we will be able to park off road, on the drive, and will therefore be be reducing the street parking by One car, but will be getting Two cars off the Street. Both couples had different councils, and both refused.

 

 awful!! it seems like councils just can't make sensible decisions at all.  

[Megawatt14]

14 hours ago, Temp said:

He suggests they changed policy in 2019 and no longer allow dropped kerbs to result in the loss of on street parking. Perhaps ask if the policy change was put out to consultation (if not is it a valid planning policy?). When was it ratified by the council etc

 

Perhaps you can find another policy that contradicts this one? How about finding out what their policy is on electric cars and C02 emissions? Then perhaps write to the chairman of the council and point out that this policy precludes you buying an electric car as you cannot run a cable across the kerb. 

 

 

i will ask!  his manager interestingly hasn't replied to me yet when i forwarded all the correspondence to him that i'd had with this guy over email.  

 

it's weird as he has sent me a 2019 guide, i think he's sent me an out of date doc.  there is nothing on the council website other than a 1 page checklist.  no guidance alongside or anything.     but i found something on their sister council website for 2020, for my council (i know this because it has the name of my council on the front page).  when i compare what he has sent ovre, with this doc i found on the sister council website, both say exactly the same thing about the CPZ.  both say it has to be assessed on its own merits. so what hes saying about being unable to vary it, i dont know.  it just doesn't seem to make sense!

 

i have been reading lots online for other london borough councils and they elaborate alot more on the matter i notice.    i was measuring out today and with our crossover approach, you would actually only need to lose 'half' a car length worth of bay.

[Megawatt14]

14 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

Try a few searches on Mumsnet to see if anyone has won the battle.  Would think there should be some London conversation there.

i'll give it a try! thank you

[Megawatt14]

14 hours ago, PeterW said:

Just apply, pay the costs and also indicate you will be creating 2 spaces, one for an electric vehicle that requires a plug in space. 
 

How far outside the N/S circular are you ..? 

 the electric car is a good point, it came to me this morning as well. my fiance and i are actually discussing it at the moment  as it happens.  i'm a bit reluctant to press that point though as they might volunteer to put a charging point on the road for us?  we at the border of surrey / greater london 

[Megawatt14]

13 hours ago, Gav_P said:

Is there a defined parking bay outside your house already? 
 

Why not pave your front garden anyway... the drop kerb can be done at a later date once you e figure out how to tackle the poxy planners. 
 

I certain there are some Transient individuals who would drop the curb over weekend if you were so inclined. 

 yeh, basically theres a long bay probably about 20m long? there are no defined spaces within so you just park whereever alongside the kerb.  the end of the bay stops pretty much at the boundary with the semi next to us.   we are so keen to press on however, if we really aren't allowed the dropped kerb, then we'd have to turn it into a garden or something i think rather than hardstanding.  so would mean ripping it all up if unsuccesful to do a garden.  ah yes i am feeling quite inclined at the moment!! i actually was thinking how easy it would be to scrub out the edge of the bay on the road and make it shorter ? i keep reading horror stories where people have done that and the council made them put it back!!

[Mr Punter]

1 hour ago, Megawatt14 said:

yeh, basically theres a long bay probably about 20m long

 

You need to measure it.  The council should have a standard size for a space.  Where we are it is 5.5m, so if the whole bay length were 20m it may only be able to accommodate 3 cars and so could be reduced to 16.5m without loss of spaces.

[Megawatt14]

59 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

 

You need to measure it.  The council should have a standard size for a space.  Where we are it is 5.5m, so if the whole bay length were 20m it may only be able to accommodate 3 cars and so could be reduced to 16.5m without loss of spaces.

i will go out this eve and do it.  when you say 5.5m is that from the furthest end of the car to the other?

[Mr Punter]

Where we are they have an allowance for bay sizes of 5.5m per vehicle, so a single bay is 5.5m, double 11m and so on.  Sometimes they are an extra metre or so.  They are not demarcated per car, so bad parking and big cars can stuff things up but residents on busy streets tend to want to keep things neighbourly and are fairly careful not to park badly.

[Temp]

I think this might be a job for a Planning Consultant that has handled similar cases.

 

It looks like most councils handle applications for a dropped kerb differently to other planning applications (eg an extension). 

 

However it also looks like you can appeals to the Planning Inspectorate eg following a Planning Application where the "development" is  a dropped kerb. Such an appeal would take the decision out of the hands of the council. The council could contest it but that costs them money so if they think they might loose they might not even fight it.  Appeal Inspectors do put weight on formally ratified local plans but less weight on plans that have not been formally ratified.  They are also required to take into account National Policies.

 

These Appeals were refused..

https://acp.planninginspectorate.gov.uk/ViewDocument.aspx?fileid=29689390

 

These Appeals were granted..

http://www2.guildford.gov.uk/councilmeetings/mgConvert2PDF.aspx?ID=4648

http://www.eaststaffsbc.gov.uk/MVM.DMS/Planning Application/626000/626324/P_2015_00021 APPEAL DECISION.pdf

 

More searching might turn up one involving loss of roadside parking. 

[Ferdinand]

 

2 hours ago, Mr Punter said:

Where we are they have an allowance for bay sizes of 5.5m per vehicle, so a single bay is 5.5m, double 11m and so on.  Sometimes they are an extra metre or so.  They are not demarcated per car, so bad parking and big cars can stuff things up but residents on busy streets tend to want to keep things neighbourly and are fairly careful not to park badly.

 

I don't think 5.5m works for parallel parking bays. Normal cars (big Estates and Tonka Tanks, never mind Tesla Xs) are up to 5m. Though you could try arguing "enter via the end" for the two outer spaces.

 

There is no defined size for such a parking bay, apparently to allow Councils to set it appropriately for each circmstance. Unfortunately that means arguing against may be like nailing jelly to a wall.

 

There is a defined length for disabled spaces at 6.6m, which is close to a third of what it is now. 

 

Ferdinand

 

 

[Mr Punter]

4 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

I don't think 5.5m works for parallel parking bays

 

It is how they assess parking availability and take up.  This is how the Lambeth Methodology works for parking stress surveys.

[Ferdinand]

11 hours ago, Mr Punter said:

 

It is how they assess parking availability and take up.  This is how the Lambeth Methodology works for parking stress surveys.

 

That's interesting. Every day is a school day.

 

Looking on the Lambeth site it actually looks like a minimum of 5m, (divide by 5 and round down to the integer) which would be interesting in my 4.83m car. Have to spin it in like a stunt driver ? .  But the 5.5m is presumably the 'average' size, assuming an even distribution across the remainder that is rounded.

https://www.lambeth.gov.uk/sites/default/files/pl-PARKING_SURVEY_GUIDANCE_NOTE_Nov_2012_Update.pdf

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited August 27, 2020 by Ferdinand

[Megawatt14]

just measured it, its 18.5.  so that would be 3 spaces right ?

 

[Mr Punter]

8 minutes ago, Megawatt14 said:

just measured it, its 18.5.  so that would be 3 spaces right ?

 

Yes, so you may be able to get them to take off 2 metres.  Have a chat and see what they say.  What is at either end of the bay?  Double yellows?  Disabled?  Driveway?  Whatever, it should not be insurmountable but it may cost a few quid for road markings etc.

[Megawatt14]

thats such a good point.  i'm glad for your input!!  i did a trawl of the council website and no indication of any parking size requirements on there that i can see.  and yeh absolutely nothing at either end of the bay.  its just marked out in standard dash white markings.  nothing marked internally within the bay etc.  i just really need to get someone out to so we can have a sensible conversation! councillors have been very responsive despite being on holiday so will see what they come back with next week.