GaryM Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 Hi All, I'm just starting a project of remodelling our house, which includes lifting the roof and adding a second story. My intention is to clad the first floor with Siberian larch vertical 44mm x 44mm battens similar to the attached. To test the idea out I will use it on some outbuildings, However I'm finding it very hard to find details in the technique. The outbuildings are brick so I will not use UV membrane, ( i will on the house). I will use chamfered horizontal battens attached to the wall with masonry screws, for the houses I will use thin vertical battens, then chamfered horizontal battens. Then the vertical cladding battens will be fixed via cladding screws to the horizontal battens. All the information I'm finding on line is mainly standard closed joint cladding and does not seem appropriate, i.e. use mesh to stop vermin or details around openings. Can anyone point me to any appropriate information. Thanks Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialuser Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 Sorry cant help with your specific question, but I am interested in whether people really do use chamfered battens. I know the standard details show chamfered, but have you found any easily available. I will have some vertical claddingin cedar and from what I have gathered most use bog standard roofing battens. presumably it is a bit more important in cladding with open spaces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryM Posted July 9, 2020 Author Share Posted July 9, 2020 I'm using the same 44mm x 44mm timbers for the cladding and battens, I intend to chamfer them myself. Did a quick test will a circular saw and Siberian larch and it worked quite well, but a saw table would be better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialuser Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 Ah, yes, Duh! I stupidly hadn't even considered self chamfering ? Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_r_sole Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 you might get some technical info from a supplier like Russwood who seem to do a fair bit of rainscreen cladding - the one you've posted there, worries me a bit, I'd always want a capping piece rather than having the end of the battens exposed to the weather... (I've actually just done something similar on bits of my house, where I used siberian larch cladding under windows (to cover a bizarre 60's brick detail!) - I used the rawl masonry screws for the battens and then the proper cladding screws for the battens, I tried to leave 10mm gaps, but each section was slightly different. Very painful measuring it out. With a rainscreen, the membrane is really doing the heavy lifting but I've seen various details for window heads/reveals etc - try and find one you like and post it up, can probably work it backwards! (I've seen one before where they had put a bugscreen over the entire wall (over horizontal battens and under the cladding) I didn't bother with mine as it's superficial anyway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 That's exactly what we are doing. Starting the job Monday, planned job duration 10 days. Mesh? No point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gc100 Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 We had planned to have vertical open jointed but after goi g to see a building that’s got the same detail and has been there several years we went against the idea. You will want some form of mesh behind otherwise you’ll get all sort of things moving in behind but it also helps a lot with weathering. I did find a specific mesh for this detail but I can’t remember what it’s called. As we are going with a black barn paint finish we decided to 10mm shadow gap vertical cladding as you still get the look without the trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 2 hours ago, gc100 said: .... we decided to 10mm shadow gap vertical cladding as you still get the look without the trouble. Thats what we plan to do - maybe 8mm, but we'll see what the 2mm difference makes visually . Tyvek Solitex Fronta Quattro is what we're using beneath the boarding. Its really impressive (if very expensive) stuff: its been up for a while now. In using that product, the only restriction is the relationship between the width of the board and the size of the gap between the boards up to 35mm. The exterior cladding needs to be at least three times the width of the gap. Our boards are 144mm wide, so in theory we could have 35mm gaps. And who knows, if I have got the maths wrong, maybe we'll have to have 35mm gaps. But man, I'll be glad to see the boards on at last ... soooo glad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_r_sole Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 5 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said: Thats what we plan to do - maybe 8mm, but we'll see what the 2mm difference makes visually . You won't notice by the time you've got a full wall on - my battens weren't exactly square either but over a few boards you don't read the difference in the gap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryM Posted July 10, 2020 Author Share Posted July 10, 2020 Thank you for all of you replies 10 hours ago, the_r_sole said: you might get some technical info from a supplier like Russwood who seem to do a fair bit of rainscreen cladding - the one you've posted there, worries me a bit, I'd always want a capping piece rather than having the end of the battens exposed to the weather... (I've actually just done something similar on bits of my house, where I used siberian larch cladding under windows (to cover a bizarre 60's brick detail!) - I used the rawl masonry screws for the battens and then the proper cladding screws for the battens, I tried to leave 10mm gaps, but each section was slightly different. Very painful measuring it out. With a rainscreen, the membrane is really doing the heavy lifting but I've seen various details for window heads/reveals etc - try and find one you like and post it up, can probably work it backwards! (I've seen one before where they had put a bugscreen over the entire wall (over horizontal battens and under the cladding) I didn't bother with mine as it's superficial anyway! I will take another look at Russwood info. I intend to do it slightly different to the picture, I've extended the roof (metal 32/1000 profile) to cover the tops of the timbers. Gc100, vertical shadow gap is our fallback or the house if we are not happy with the vertical battens on the outbuildings. 18 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said: Thats what we plan to do - maybe 8mm, but we'll see what the 2mm difference makes visually . Tyvek Solitex Fronta Quattro is what we're using beneath the boarding. Its really impressive (if very expensive) stuff: its been up for a while now. In using that product, the only restriction is the relationship between the width of the board and the size of the gap between the boards up to 35mm. The exterior cladding needs to be at least three times the width of the gap. Our boards are 144mm wide, so in theory we could have 35mm gaps. And who knows, if I have got the maths wrong, maybe we'll have to have 35mm gaps. But man, I'll be glad to see the boards on at last ... soooo glad. I will take a look at the membrane, I had seen this one https://www.proctorgroup.com/products/facadeshield it says cladding needs to at least 50% of the area. I need to do my maths on the spacing, i trying to figure out the spacing around the windows on the outbuildings as they do not fall neatly on the spacing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 53 minutes ago, the_r_sole said: You won't notice by the time you've got a full wall on - my battens weren't exactly square either but over a few boards you don't read the difference in the gap Hmmm, is that an invitation to try a 35mm gap then? ? 42 minutes ago, GaryM said: ... do my maths on the spacing, i trying to figure out the spacing around the windows on the outbuildings as they do not fall neatly on the spacing. here's the formula... Measure the complete gap to be covered. Measure the total width of the number of boards you want to use Deduct the total boards width from the complete gap's width (Nett gap) add 1 to the number of boards used - that number is the number of gaps Divide the Nett Gap size by (Number of boards +1) . Disappear up your fundament trying to tinker with the numbers to suit window and door openings. I am glad to have a chippy working with me so he can sweat the fine detail round openings. The thing I am trying to avoid is having part of a board running up and down the sides of windows and doors. So, I think in (say) a wall with one door and one window in it, there will be four gap calculations given that I want the edge of the doors and windows to have full boards next to them - oh no, five (because theres a gap above and below the window - no hold on, six becuase theres a gap above the door. Hold on a minute thats wrong - ah stuff it @the_r_sole will be along in a minnit. (please) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_r_sole Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 always good to overthink it ? I'll tell you how I did it... not quite as scientific. Put batten on either end, measure from outside edge of one side to inside edge of the other - divide by the width of the batten plus gap (so for me it was 70mm - 60mm battens +10mm) And that gives you an approximate number of battens you'll need, so then take the whole number and divide the gap by that... I was generally getting figures like 70.3mm for the gaps, so what I did was measure it in 10s (much easier to measure 703mm than 70.3...) then I had a piece of wood marked with the 70.3 on it and marked that along the top counter batten (so it gives you the outside edge of all the battens) and by the time you've marked 10 you can see how far out you are!! I was also only marking spacing at the top, then trying to make them level but I didn't have huge lengths to deal with. Probably better to take some professional advice on it, mine was very much having a stab! I also believe you can get an app which will work out your spacing for you... have you got windows close together, you'd be amazed at how you can adjust the gaps very slightly to accomodate, I only scribed one length where the top of the wall was 30mm out from the bottom ? but everywhere else we managed full boards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryM Posted July 10, 2020 Author Share Posted July 10, 2020 (edited) ToughButterCup, as my wife says to me "your over thinking it, just get on with it" she's a hard women I have one trick up my sleeve to make life easier, on the none opening windows I may just run the cladding over them, the gaps will be quite wide around 35mm. Someone did suggest to me I should use a second membrane, perhaps a fine mesh, over the tops of the battens, directly behind the cladding, to stop vermin,. I'm not too sure about this, will do some searching to see if I can find a suitable material. It will need to be dark fine mesh, but must allow moisture to escape from the cladding. Edited July 10, 2020 by GaryM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 (edited) Well @GaryM, I've had a few years of JustBloodyDoItFirst swiftly followed by RepentAtLeisureLater. There's a lot to be said for the approach, and often just getting on with it is useful. Just ask @Onoff But - cladding - everyone and their dog will be looking at it. And I don't want to be wincing every time I look at it. 27 minutes ago, the_r_sole said: ... Put batten on either end, measure from outside edge of one side to inside edge of the other - divide by the width of the batten plus gap (so for me it was 70mm - 60mm battens +10mm) And that gives you an approximate number of battens you'll need, ... Ok so far. BUT - using vertical boarding - just like the image you posted @GaryM; What happens with 'visual' interruptions like doors and windows - annoying things that they are? I think I have to treat any total wall width as a series of gaps - for example in a wall with one door in the middle of the wall, the gaps might be from left to right (LH) edge of wall to (LH) edge of door above door (RH) edge of door to (RH) edge of wall In this scenario (using vertical boards) I'd want a whole board on the left hand edge of the wall the right hand edge of the wall the left hand edge of the door the right hand edge of the door That makes three spans. And in one (or more) of those spans I bet , there will be tears, wailing and gnashing of teeth. But I have a table saw. And persistence. Edited July 10, 2020 by ToughButterCup 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryM Posted July 10, 2020 Author Share Posted July 10, 2020 @ToughButterCupGood luck with the job on Monday, please post pictures. I will make a measuring stick, with the proposed cladding spacing marked on it to see how it all fits around the pesky interruptions. I think I will batten all around the window and door openings, then fine adjustments of spacing, as @the_r_sole suggested, and hope the main vertical cladding line up okay with openings. I still looking into the idea a pest membrane directly behind the open joint cladding, for my old outbuildings I'm not too bothered about the vermin control, we live in the country and mice and rats up and down the garden. However I would be concerned on my house, I could use something like this on the battens, https://www.meshdirect.co.uk/fly-screen-insect-mesh/special-offers/pet-proof-insect-screen.html. What are others doing? bear in mind this wide open joint cladding. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 1 hour ago, GaryM said: ... I will make a measuring stick, with the proposed cladding spacing marked on it to see how it all fits around the pesky interruptions. ... I did that with some vertical louvres I installed recently. The gap was 89.5mm - well it should have been. I made a story stick as you suggested and then made three spacer blocks for top middle and bottom of each gap. Each spacer was screwed to the 'previous ' louvre. In other words the next louvre was bang on correct during the fitting process. But... I reviewed the results when finished. The screwing process sometimes made a noticeable difference to the final postion. Over 10 louvres the error seemed to disappear. Then I checked with the story stick I made. It was miles out. A chippy looked over my work, sucked his teeth and said Next time mark the story stick with a knife. Cumulative pencil errors..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 2 hours ago, ToughButterCup said: just getting on with it is useful. I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with those terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_r_sole Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 that's a bit of mine, you can see the interesting wall lean on the left... but the gaps are all over the place if you look close up, but you get away with it (just about) over the full width - as I said, if you measure then 10 at a time, you can make sure you're not too far out overall! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 That leaning left wall... relaxing to look at, that. But illustrates the principle that as @Ferdinand says, God is the bloody details. He puts it more politely . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryM Posted July 10, 2020 Author Share Posted July 10, 2020 @the_r_sole that looks good. To confirm that is using shadow gap cladding like this https://www.timberulove.co.uk/products/siberian-larch-shadow-gap-cladding-a-grade-28-mm-thickness/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_r_sole Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 Nope, mine is 60mm x 28mm battens with a gap between Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryM Posted July 10, 2020 Author Share Posted July 10, 2020 @the_r_sole I miss understood a previous comment. Have you done any thing to stop pests getting in behind the battens? it's been suggested to me I put a mesh behind the cladding battens, but on top of the wall battens, have you done anything like this ? if I did I may use something like this https://www.meshdirect.co.uk/fly-screen-insect-mesh/special-offers/pet-proof-insect-screen.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_r_sole Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 https://www.timberulove.co.uk/products/siberian-larch-smooth-finish-a-grade-battens-35-mm-thickness/ 6m lengths of this in 60mm I got Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 Hmmm, must confess to wondering if insect mesh is worth it in our case. We will have a few hundred meters of 10mm gap. I have no idea what damage insects can do to an ICF wall. They'd need hard heads to get into the concrete.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryM Posted July 10, 2020 Author Share Posted July 10, 2020 1 minute ago, ToughButterCup said: Hmmm, must confess to wondering if insect mesh is worth it in our case. We will have a few hundred meters of 10mm gap. I have no idea what damage insects can do to an ICF wall. They'd need hard heads to get into the concrete.... On my brick outbuildings I agree with you. I will have bigger gaps, 35mm with 44mm air gap. We might get birds or mice nesting I can live with that. Just hope wasp don't like it. However on my house, i'm not so sure although you it will be on block, it will be higher up so harder to clean out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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