planning required for leanto workshop attached to garage?

[starbuckhouse]

I have a 9m x 6m detached garage that is 7 m away from the side of my house. I would like to build a wooden shed/workshop along one side of the garage, (furthest from the house) I would like it to be 9m x 3m, concrete floor and timber sides with roofing sheets. it will be attached to the garage wall but a separate building with its own access.
The new workshop will be just over 2 m from the property boundary. 2.4m at the highest point and approx. 2m at the eves.

Do I need planning or building regs to do this?
thanks for any info offered

[Jeremy Harris]

Welcome.

 

Whether or not you need planning consent depends on a few factors.  Does your house still have Permitted Development rights?  Most will, but sometimes these are either removed as a planning condition, or are restricted because of the house being somewhere like a Conservation Area, AONB, National Park, etc.

 

Assuming that you do have PD rights, then the Planning Portal has a pretty good guide on how to determine whether or not planning consent may be needed: https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200125/do_you_need_permission

 

Whether you need Building Regulations approval depends on the area of the building, and the use to which it's being put.  Again, the Planning Portal has some useful guidance: https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200130/common_projects/43/outbuildings/2

[DevilDamo]

@starbuckhouse Weren’t happy with the advice and guidance we provided on DIYnot then ?

 

It’s not as clear cut as you think hence why the advice is to really check with both Planning and Building Control.

 

Just out of interest, is the double garage existing and was built at the same time as the original house? That may help in advising the Planning side of things.

[Jeremy Harris]

  On 28/04/2020 at 18:18, DevilDamo said:

@starbuckhouse Weren’t happy with the advice and guidance we provided on DIYnot then ?

 

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"We" didn't necessarily see anything on any other forum (I didn't), or was this the Royal "We"?

 

 

[starbuckhouse]

  On 28/04/2020 at 18:18, DevilDamo said:

@starbuckhouse Weren’t happy with the advice and guidance we provided on DIYnot then ?

 

It’s not as clear cut as you think hence why the advice is to really check with both Planning and Building Control.

 

Just out of interest, is the double garage existing and was built at the same time as the original house? That may help in advising the Planning side of things.

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The garage has been there about 4 years, house is a few hundred years old. Having looked at the info on the planning portal, I couldn't find clear advice on outbuildings attached to other outbuildings. My local council planning dept are not approachable, last time I asked for advice for a different project they just said to put in a pre application, which I did then a while later they said I would need to submit planning application to find out for sure, and that was just for a porch.

[Temp]

I don't think you need Building Control Approval but check..

https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200130/common_projects/43/outbuildings/2

 

It's likely the electrics might be notifiable. Eg need to be done by an appropriately qualified electrician who will self certify his work to Building Control.

Edited April 29, 2020 by Temp

[DevilDamo]

  On 28/04/2020 at 23:49, starbuckhouse said:

 

The garage has been there about 4 years, house is a few hundred years old. Having looked at the info on the planning portal, I couldn't find clear advice on outbuildings attached to other outbuildings. My local council planning dept are not approachable, last time I asked for advice for a different project they just said to put in a pre application, which I did then a while later they said I would need to submit planning application to find out for sure, and that was just for a porch.

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This is why the Planning Portal isn't the best thing for you because it doesn't go into detail for these kind of situations.

 

In my opinion and if you were to attach a building to an existing outbuilding, the buildings 'together' would need to comply with the PD rules... if you were looking to go down that route. In that respect, the building as a whole would need to have eaves no higher than 2.5m and an overall height that does not exceed 3m. For a dual pitched roof, the overall height is increased to 4m but I do not think the LPA would consider the resulting design as a dual pitched/gable roof. You mentioned the overall height of the extended part would be 2.4m so does that imply the overall height of the existing Garage may exceed 3m?

 

In terms of Building Regulations, they may also look at it as an outbuilding. Under their guidance, any outbuilding that exceeds 30sq.m in (internal) floor area require a BR application.

 

If you were to physically separate the workshop from the Garage, I think you could get that through PD as well as being exempt from BR's. That is why on another forum, I mentioned to you about providing a gap of approx. 300mm. I know this isn't ideal as it means more excavation and another new wall but if you are wanting exemption, then this may be the only way to go. A 300mm gap isn't great for access and could provide an area for bits and pieces to gather but there'd be no harm in sealing off the gap at the head in order to help prevent this.

 

Just out of interest, what are your reasons in wanting to try and avoid seeking Planning and Building Regulation approvals? I can't see any issue why you wouldn't secure approvals anyway.

[starbuckhouse]

  On 29/04/2020 at 11:31, DevilDamo said:

 

This is why the Planning Portal isn't the best thing for you because it doesn't go into detail for these kind of situations.

 

In my opinion and if you were to attach a building to an existing outbuilding, the buildings 'together' would need to comply with the PD rules... if you were looking to go down that route. In that respect, the building as a whole would need to have eaves no higher than 2.5m and an overall height that does not exceed 3m. For a dual pitched roof, the overall height is increased to 4m but I do not think the LPA would consider the resulting design as a dual pitched/gable roof. You mentioned the overall height of the extended part would be 2.4m so does that imply the overall height of the existing Garage may exceed 3m?

 

In terms of Building Regulations, they may also look at it as an outbuilding. Under their guidance, any outbuilding that exceeds 30sq.m in (internal) floor area require a BR application.

 

If you were to physically separate the workshop from the Garage, I think you could get that through PD as well as being exempt from BR's. That is why on another forum, I mentioned to you about providing a gap of approx. 300mm. I know this isn't ideal as it means more excavation and another new wall but if you are wanting exemption, then this may be the only way to go. A 300mm gap isn't great for access and could provide an area for bits and pieces to gather but there'd be no harm in sealing off the gap at the head in order to help prevent this.

 

Just out of interest, what are your reasons in wanting to try and avoid seeking Planning and Building Regulation approvals? I can't see any issue why you wouldn't secure approvals anyway.

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thanks for the advice, reason is mainly to avoid costs and time.

Edited April 29, 2020 by starbuckhouse

[DevilDamo]

Your other ‘option’ and I use the word loosely is to build the workshop, wait to see if it’s picked up and if so, deal with it retrospectively. In the long term, this could actually work out more expensive.

[joe90]

  On 29/04/2020 at 17:54, DevilDamo said:

Your other ‘option’ and I use the word loosely is to build the workshop, wait to see if it’s picked up and if so, deal with it retrospectively. In the long term, this could actually work out more expensive.

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would it?, surely if you are proved wrong that in your opinion it was PD but the council disagree you just apply retrospectively surely? I say this because I also want to build a “tractor shed” on the side of my garage (workshop) for my tractor and implements (toys). There is a rule about building beyond the principle elevation of the dwelling but our build was turned through 90’ to the original bungalow so it’s arguable which is the principle elevation. Anyway I am going to build it (when I get time) and deal with the planners if I have too! What could possibly go wrong ?.

Edited April 29, 2020 by joe90

[DevilDamo]

Planning
 

If it’s considered to be PD and you submit a CoL application before it’s built, it’ll cost £103.00.

 

If it’s considered to be PD and you submit a CoL application after it’s built, it’ll cost £206.00.

 

If it’s not considered to be PD, it’ll cost you £206.00 irrespective if a HH application is submitted before or after.

 

Building Regulations

 

If it requires BR approval, you apply by submitting a BN or FP application before it’s built with the standard fees.

 

If it requires BR approval and you apply after it’s built, you’ll have to submit a Regularisation Certificate application which if I remember correctly, the fees are approx. 20% more.

 

I think I’ve covered all situations ? So it’s cheaper and can also be quicker to deal with it sooner rather than later, i.e. before it’s built.

[joe90]

Types of Permitted Development Rights
 

Class E – Buildings etc. (outbuildings)

This allows for an outbuilding to be erected within a residential curtilage as long as it is sited behind the principal (often the front) elevation, does not cover more than 50% of the curtilage and is not more than 3m in height (4m for a dual-pitched roof; 2.5m where within 2m of a boundary).
 

I don’t see why extending an existing building is not covered by the above?

[Roger440]

  On 29/04/2020 at 18:34, joe90 said:

Types of Permitted Development Rights
 

Class E – Buildings etc. (outbuildings)

This allows for an outbuilding to be erected within a residential curtilage as long as it is sited behind the principal (often the front) elevation, does not cover more than 50% of the curtilage and is not more than 3m in height (4m for a dual-pitched roof; 2.5m where within 2m of a boundary).
 

I don’t see why extending an existing building is not covered by the above?

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We dont know the height of the existing building. If its over 4m its definitely not PD.

[DevilDamo]

@joe90 My theory is if you are joining onto an existing outbuilding, then the resulting outbuilding, i.e. existing and new would have to comply with the PD rules. This is where in this case the OP may have to check the existing garage in addition to the workshop extension complies with the heights, etc...

 

With the workshop having a lean-to roof design and the garage having a gable roof, I don’t think you could argue the outbuilding would have a dual pitched/gable roof. This is why I think the overall height of the resulting outbuilding is limited to 3m, i.e. any other roof.

[joe90]

  On 29/04/2020 at 11:31, DevilDamo said:

The garage has been there about 4 years, house is a few hundred years old.

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so @starbuckhouse was the garage built with planning permission or PD.?

 

 

  On 29/04/2020 at 20:28, DevilDamo said:

My theory is if you are joining onto an existing outbuilding, then the resulting outbuilding, i.e. existing and new would have to comply with the PD rules.

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hence my question above. If it was built under PD the addition is not taller or fails the PD rules in any other way as a whole.

 

 

  On 29/04/2020 at 20:28, DevilDamo said:

My theory

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yes, theory, I personally know how disjointed and ambiguous planning rules are, it took a planning appeal on my part to prove my planning department were not interpreting the rules correctly which if written properly would not be ambiguous, which they are in many cases.

 

Edited April 29, 2020 by joe90

[Mike]

  On 28/04/2020 at 15:47, Jeremy Harris said:

Whether you need Building Regulations approval depends on the area of the building, and the use to which it's being put.

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And also whether it's to be heated (or cooled); if either then Building Regs are required irrespective of area or use.

 

I imagine that it will be at least heated for winter use if it is to be used as a workshop? If so it will need insulating to the normal standards.

Edited April 30, 2020 by Mike

[joe90]

  On 28/04/2020 at 15:28, starbuckhouse said:

concrete floor and timber sides with roofing sheets

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not exactly insulated to any standards, my workshop has an electric heater above the bench pointed at me when I work at the bench in winter but it’s not insulated at all and built under PD.

[Jeremy Harris]

  On 30/04/2020 at 01:42, Mike said:

 

And also whether it's to be heated (or cooled); if either then Building Regs are required irrespective of area or use.

 

I imagine that it will be at least heated for winter use if it is to be used as a workshop? If so it will need insulating to the normal standards.

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My detached workshop is insulated, heated and cooled, yet building control just weren't interested, as it wasn't a habitable building.  Building control did no inspections at all on the garage/workshop, as it was detached, not a habitable building and under the floor area where building regs would apply.  

[Mike]

  On 30/04/2020 at 06:32, Jeremy Harris said:

My detached workshop is insulated, heated and cooled, yet building control just weren't interested, as it wasn't a habitable building.

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I've just checked and my interpretation of the regs is indeed wrong! Regulation 9 exempts certain buildings, subject to Regulation 21 which puts heating / cooled buildings back in the regulations. However that contains another exception (that I'd forgotten about) for various structures including 'stand-alone buildings other than dwellings with a total useful floor area of less than 50m2'.

However in the case of @starbuckhouse , the existing garage is 54m², so this exemption wouldn't apply.

BTW being habitable (or not) isn't a criteria (the word 'habitable' doesn't appear in the legislation).

Top marks for insulating anyway, Jeremy

 

Edited April 30, 2020 by Mike

[starbuckhouse]

The original garage is 4m tall, it had Planning and BR on it when it was built.


 

[joe90]

  On 30/04/2020 at 21:30, starbuckhouse said:

The original garage is 4m tall, it had Planning and BR on it when it was built.


 

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so it’s only the additional lean to that’s PD. 

[DevilDamo]

@joe90 I'm trying to think how or why it would make any difference if the garage did or did not have full Planning? If the garage was attached to the dwellinghouse, then Class A would apply but the fact it's detached, Class E applies irrespective of its Planning history... or am I reading this wrong? This is why I was under the impression for any building that is to be physically attached to an outbuilding, the PD rules for Class E would apply to the resulting building(s). With the garage having a maximum height of 4m, this would be ok providing the LPA agree the resulting building(s) have a dual pitched/gable roof because if not, the overall height is limited to 3m.

 

In terms of Building Regulations and again, if they too treat the building(s) as outbuildings then as the resulting internal footprint would exceed 30sq.m, then BR's would apply!?!

 

Because this is not that clear and the online guidance doesn't go into detail for such individual cases, I feel the only option is for the OP to submit an application... trying with a CoL first. If this is refused, then the OP would have to submit a HH application, which would result in application fees totalling £309.00. Or the OP just proceeds with the submission of a HH application for £206.00 and get it approved... which I can't see initially why they wouldn't do anything but.

[joe90]

  On 29/04/2020 at 20:22, Roger440 said:

Class E – Buildings etc. (outbuildings)

This allows for an outbuilding to be erected within a residential curtilage as long as it is sited behind the principal (often the front) elevation, does not cover more than 50% of the curtilage and is not more than 3m in height (4m for a dual-pitched roof; 2.5m where within 2m of a boundary).

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this garage is not PD,  the lean to workshop is (class E above applies) no where does or state the “outbuilding must be stand alone “. 

 

  On 01/05/2020 at 11:13, DevilDamo said:

Class E applies irrespective of its Planning history..

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No, the garage has planning permission, the lean too (if it were me) would be built under PD. If the garage were PD then the planners might take into account the whole building now being PD but It still would fit all regs. 
 

Its @starbuckhouse call but as far as I can see his case to build under PD is very clear. Frankly, as others have said elsewhere the planners will tell you to apply as it’s Income. I have been through this loop many times.

[Jeremy Harris]

I agree, if something like a garage has been built with PP, then any addition to it that's within the PD rules could be built under PD.  There's no rule about grossing up the areas of an existing building with PP and that of an extension to it under PD, AFAIK.  I went through this some years ago with a detached garage that had been built without PP, where I applied for a certificate of lawfulness, which was granted, then built an extension to the garage under PD, which was fine, as the certificate of lawfulness was considered to have the same standing as if the garage had been built with PP.  In this case I only discovered that the garage had been built without consent when I sought advice about whether the extension to it came within the PD rules, it was the planners who advised as to the course of action to take to regularise things (before the days when they were chasing every bit of income they could).

[starbuckhouse]

Thanks for all the info, has given me plenty to think about, cheers