Looking for advice: Log Cabin "Caravan" build Scotland

[Crofter]

5 hours ago, morkus said:

In what way does it not comply with the caravan act ? Let's say I was able to make it so it can be lifted. Is there anything else preventing it from being a "caravan" ?

 

It's not a trivial matter to make it capable of being lifted. How would you plan to do this, and what would the effect be upon the finished height and look of the building?

[iSelfBuild]

6 hours ago, morkus said:

In what way does it not comply with the caravan act ? Let's say I was able to make it so it can be lifted. Is there anything else preventing it from being a "caravan" ?

 

 

 

This is something I may be interested in, what kind of price would this be ?

 

You need structural calculations proving it can be lifted by a ”MIStructE” or “FIStructE" engineer and also a comprehensive method statement demonstrating how it complies and meets the caravan act and this should be accepted by the local planning and building control to prevent future complications.

 

I think I cover the prices in my thread I linked, it's not a low cost option as it is 200mm round log and designed as a show home so has solid oak kitchen etc. 

 

The one you linked to is a very thin wall construction, it could be made to comply with EN 1647 - 5% VAT rated, seasonal use. 

 

[morkus]

On 05/02/2020 at 21:02, Crofter said:

It certainly doesn't look as though the floor joists are a single span without intermediate supports, as would be needed for a portable building.

 

On 05/02/2020 at 21:02, Crofter said:

To give you one example, my wee house has a floor span of 4.8m (the log cabin in your link is just shy of 6m) and I had to use 300mm deep engineered I-beam joists in order to make the span without intermediate supports. 

@Crofter Are single span floor joists without intermediate supports something that is necessary in order to conform to the definition of a caravan ? Or is it necessary in order for it to be capable of being lifted safely ? 

[morkus]

5 hours ago, Crofter said:

 

It's not a trivial matter to make it capable of being lifted. How would you plan to do this, and what would the effect be upon the finished height and look of the building?

I understand that, I just want to know whether there is anything else preventing it from legally being considered a caravan ? Then I can focus on finding a way (if possible) to make it capable of being lifted.

[Crofter]

3 hours ago, morkus said:

 

@Crofter Are single span floor joists without intermediate supports something that is necessary in order to conform to the definition of a caravan ? Or is it necessary in order for it to be capable of being lifted safely ? 

I don't think there is anything specifically in legislation about floor construction, it's just that the building must be capable of being moved in no more than two sections.

You could split the building in two along the long axis, halving the joist spans, but each section has to be self supporting, which will complicate the roof structure a lot.

 

3 hours ago, morkus said:

I understand that, I just want to know whether there is anything else preventing it from legally being considered a caravan ? Then I can focus on finding a way (if possible) to make it capable of being lifted.

@iSelfBuild knows more about this than I do- I was fortunate to not face too many questions during my build.

As far as I am aware, the definition of a 'caravan' for the purposes of building regs exemption are simply that it must be movable in no more than two sections, and the completed building should be no more than 6x18m (Scottish rules- England allows slightly larger). Internal ceiling height maximum 3.048m. It doesn't need to be on wheels, and there doesn't actually need to be physical space to get a crane or other machinery in to do the lifting. The portability is innate to the building, and not dependent on its surroundings.

 

As I've said before, I do think that the benefits of going down the portable building route are sometimes overstated. It worked for me because I couldn't do a VAT reclaim, didn't need to get a mortgage, and was doing all the design and build work myself. Of course if you're doing it because you want to cut down on thermal performance, fire safety, disabled access, and save a bit of time and money not having to do the building warrant and inspections, then go ahead. But most of those regs are there for a good reason, and you'll end up with an unmortgagable property and no VAT reclaim.

[morkus]

21 minutes ago, Crofter said:

I don't think there is anything specifically in legislation about floor construction, it's just that the building must be capable of being moved in no more than two sections.

You could split the building in two along the long axis, halving the joist spans, but each section has to be self supporting, which will complicate the roof structure a lot.

I spoke with the manufacturer and they confirmed their cabins aren't designed to be moved, just to be built upon a flat base. Now I am thinking about building it upon a steel chassis which is able to be lifted. 

 

24 minutes ago, Crofter said:

As I've said before, I do think that the benefits of going down the portable building route are sometimes overstated. It worked for me because I couldn't do a VAT reclaim, didn't need to get a mortgage, and was doing all the design and build work myself. Of course if you're doing it because you want to cut down on thermal performance, fire safety, disabled access, and save a bit of time and money not having to do the building warrant and inspections, then go ahead. But most of those regs are there for a good reason, and you'll end up with an unmortgagable property and no VAT reclaim.

Ideally I would like to build something like what you have but I don't have a lot of experience and I have a limited budget. If I can get one of these prefabs on a steel chassis capable of being lifted I'll be quite happy with that. Not sure how much one of these would cost I'm still to have a look

[Crofter]

A big steel pallet would be one way of going about it, but something sturdy enough to do the job is not going to be cheap.

Can I ask why you are so keen to do down the portable route, rather than just getting a building warrant?

[iSelfBuild]

1 hour ago, morkus said:

I spoke with the manufacturer and they confirmed their cabins aren't designed to be moved, just to be built upon a flat base. Now I am thinking about building it upon a steel chassis which is able to be lifted. 

 

Ideally I would like to build something like what you have but I don't have a lot of experience and I have a limited budget. If I can get one of these prefabs on a steel chassis capable of being lifted I'll be quite happy with that. Not sure how much one of these would cost I'm still to have a look

 

Do you already own the land? If so why do you want to build a log cabin specifically? The cabin you have linked to is just a glorified Wendy house. If you want to make it compliant with the caravan act expect about £5k in design fees or loads of your own time and research for a method statement and maybe it will go down to £2k in engineers costs minimium. That's without the materials for a structural raft. If your looking to establish a small site for holiday let purposes you might be better off doing say 3 camping pods? They would be pre-built and craned off onto the site - less hassle for you as you say you don't have any experience. The planning application would be very clear its holiday let use and there would be no building warrant implications... at least I don't think? I don't even know myself how camping pods are dealt with in planning terms? Is it the same portable/mobile regulations anyone... I am guessing not? How is VAT treated?

 

I need to brush up on this myself as it's looking like I will be supplying 3 camping pods and a mobile log cabin where my new offices are. The client has spent £20k so far on a planning consultant so I'll ask if I can have a meeting with them to find out the situation and let yall know.

[morkus]

@iSelfBuild My area is absolutely riddled with camping pods, there's a lot of competition. I don't necessarily need a log cabin but something big enough that I could rent long term if the holiday let doesn't go too well, there is a shortage of properties available for long term rent in my area. Something that I would be comfortable living in myself if all else fails.

 

I already own the land, I'm open to different ideas but I don't have tens of thousands to spend unfortunately..

 

[morkus]

1 hour ago, Crofter said:

A big steel pallet would be one way of going about it, but something sturdy enough to do the job is not going to be cheap.

Can I ask why you are so keen to do down the portable route, rather than just getting a building warrant?

The building regulations, inspections etc seems like a lot more hassle to me. I'm not 100% though, still trying to figure out the best option for me.

[iSelfBuild]

16 minutes ago, morkus said:

@iSelfBuild My area is absolutely riddled with camping pods, there's a lot of competition. I don't necessarily need a log cabin but something big enough that I could rent long term if the holiday let doesn't go too well, there is a shortage of properties available for long term rent in my area. Something that I would be comfortable living in myself if all else fails.

 

I already own the land, I'm open to different ideas but I don't have tens of thousands to spend unfortunately..

 

 

I think you need to do your research on occupancy, competition nearby etc. I agree with you camping pods are pretty saturated. I'm planning a luxury site in 2020 where each 'hobbit house' has a wood fired hot tub and private decked area. There will also be a communal BBQ hut and sauna barrels on site. I'm trying to make it more of an experience rather than a typical camping pod site. I can pull in £150 a night for something like this locally and in my area they have high occupancy rates.

 

A log cabin or 'holiday let' will typically have a restriction on it. You can't have it as your sole or prime residency. If you wanting a log cabin that's up to the spec of BS3632 (comfortable living not a wendy house) then even a one bedroom one your going to be looking at £40k-ish for it all finished and compliant. 

 

How much land have you got? Could you start with a glamping site and then look to develop a larger log cabin down the line?

[Ferdinand]

12 hours ago, iSelfBuild said:

 

sauna barrels

 

Excellent idea.

 

 

Edited February 12, 2020 by Ferdinand

[morkus]

9 minutes ago, iSelfBuild said:

How much land have you got? Could you start with a glamping site and then look to develop a larger log cabin down the line?

I have roughly 3.5 acres, in theory I could start a small glamping site. I'm just not certain whether I would be able to get a good amount of bookings considering all the competition. It would have to be somewhat unique and a bit more than a pod in someones backgarden (Which is where the majority of pods are located around here) That being said there are a few bigger sites full of pods locally too.

[iSelfBuild]

6 minutes ago, morkus said:

I have roughly 3.5 acres, in theory I could start a small glamping site. I'm just not certain whether I would be able to get a good amount of bookings considering all the competition. It would have to be somewhat unique and a bit more than a pod in someones backgarden (Which is where the majority of pods are located around here) That being said there are a few bigger sites full of pods locally too.

That's a nice chunk of land. I would think carefully and come up with a site plan. Design it with the end in mind, think carefully about the long term vision of the site. Which area lends it self well to glamping and which area you could have maybe 3 larger log cabins on. Prove it works with the glamping site and invest in the log cabins once you know it will work. It's also a pretty good approach to get planning in a staged way and prove to the council it will be a benefit to tourism etc.

 

Exactly break the mould and make it unique. The key is differentiation in the market, the more quirky the better sometimes. You can do research very easily on Air BnB and other site to check occupancy levels and typical rates.

 

Edited February 11, 2020 by iSelfBuild

[Delicatedave]

2 minutes ago, morkus said:

I have roughly 3.5 acres, in theory I could start a small glamping site. I'm just not certain whether I would be able to get a good amount of bookings considering all the competition. It would have to be somewhat unique and a bit more than a pod in someones backgarden (Which is where the majority of pods are located around here) That being said there are a few bigger sites full of pods locally too.

As a camper personally I think you would be going the wrong way with Glamping. It's an impulse even may be a fad. Far bigger market in a decent no frills camping and hookup site with clean showers, wifi and eco friendly. I'm no expert but I've seen plenty of unused pods and Gypsy type setups go empty on my travels. Do plenty of research.

[Crofter]

2 hours ago, morkus said:

The building regulations, inspections etc seems like a lot more hassle to me. I'm not 100% though, still trying to figure out the best option for me.

 

I was also a bit apprehensive about the building warrant side of things. The actual regulations you have to follow for design and layout are easily available (https://www.gov.scot/publications/building-standards-technical-handbook-2019-domestic/) and you can spend many a happy hour poring over these to ensure that your design will comply. Even though I didn't have to adhere to these, I followed them anyway as I saw no downside to doing so, and it took away the guesswork for whether a space would work or not.

 

You probably won't get very many actual inspections. Building control don't have that many people on the ground, and if you don't make them suspicious then they'll just want to know when you've reached certain stages. Other people who have done a conventional build will be able to advise you on this.

 

The most daunting part, to me, was the need to provide structural drawings and calculations. I drew all my own plans for PP purposes, and did all my detailed design work using Sketchup (free 3D software, not really an engineering/CAD tool but excellent for visualising a project). My pencil drawings were fine for the planners, but building control would have wanted more detail.

 

If you are buying a prefab kit, or have a main contractor, then they will almost certainly provide the building warrant drawings for you as part of the package. And if not, there are professionals (architects, engineers, etc) who can do it for a relatively small sum. Certainly their fees will be far less than the amount you save if you do a conventional build with a VAT reclaim.

 

As you've said elsewhere you may want to make this your primary residence at some point. I would suggest you consider a conventional build route with a VAT reclaim, and don't mention anything about renting it out at any point. You will save 20% on your build costs, be eligible for a normal mortgage, and the finished market value will be solid.

[morkus]

1 hour ago, iSelfBuild said:

That's a nice chunk of land. I would think carefully and come up with a site plan. Design it with the end in mind, think carefully about the long term vision of the site. Which area lends it self well to glamping and which area you could have maybe 3 larger log cabins on. Prove it works with the glamping site and invest in the log cabins once you know it will work. It's also a pretty good approach to get planning in a staged way and prove to the council it will be a benefit to tourism etc.

Yeah it's definitely something for me to think about, It would cost a significant amount less too. I'm going to have a think and maybe attempt some drawings to see how things would look, we shall see how that goes ! 

[morkus]

16 minutes ago, Crofter said:

I was also a bit apprehensive about the building warrant side of things. The actual regulations you have to follow for design and layout are easily available (https://www.gov.scot/publications/building-standards-technical-handbook-2019-domestic/) and you can spend many a happy hour poring over these to ensure that your design will comply. Even though I didn't have to adhere to these, I followed them anyway as I saw no downside to doing so, and it took away the guesswork for whether a space would work or not.

I'll have a look through these, so many options to explore.

 

17 minutes ago, Crofter said:

The most daunting part, to me, was the need to provide structural drawings and calculations. I drew all my own plans for PP purposes, and did all my detailed design work using Sketchup (free 3D software, not really an engineering/CAD tool but excellent for visualising a project). My pencil drawings were fine for the planners, but building control would have wanted more detail.

I've heard of this program before I'll give it a try, I would like to attempt some drawings just to see what things would look like.

 

19 minutes ago, Crofter said:

As you've said elsewhere you may want to make this your primary residence at some point. I would suggest you consider a conventional build route with a VAT reclaim, and don't mention anything about renting it out at any point. You will save 20% on your build costs, be eligible for a normal mortgage, and the finished market value will be solid.

Do you rent out the property you have built ? Or are you living in it currently ?

[Crofter]

7 hours ago, morkus said:

Do you rent out the property you have built ? Or are you living in it currently ?

 

We rent it out. For certain personal reasons we weren't ever going to be able to call it our primary residence so VAT reclaim wasn't happening anyway.

 

[Ed Davies]

11 hours ago, morkus said:

“Sketchup (free 3D software” I've heard of this program before I'll give it a try,

 

Watch a few YouTube videos about it first. It's got its own way of working which will be very frustrating if you just try to use it assuming it works like other GUI programs.

Edited February 12, 2020 by Ed Davies