Defective Underfloor Heating?

[tsmith]

Hi all. First time poster

I live in a new build development of flats that has a communal heating system. Hot water is generated centrally - then pumped to us. That hot water then heats cold water in an indirect hot water cylinder setup. We have underfloor heating powered by the centrally heated water too.

We've just had engineers visit each flat individually to powerflush debris that was supposedly in the pipework. 

From day 1 my underfloor heating always seemed slow to warm up and patchy. But assumed that was normal - heard it can take 2 to 5 hours to heat. The flooring is Amtico

I got one of the engineers to look at the UF manifold area. See picture without flow restrictors

Hes saying my setup is different from other flats in the development. They look like picture with flow restrictors

He states I have;

1) Missing flow restrictors

2) No control board/PCB for motorised mixer

3) No temperature sensor for underfloor (so no way to set temp of floor)

Can you tell from the photos if he is correct? And what the impact would be of leaving. They are about to send me a quote for various replacement parts. 

The floor does get warm eventually but takes 2 hours +

Edited January 15, 2020 by tsmith

[ProDave]

Is the pump running, can you hear it or are there any lights on it?

 

What does the temperature gauge bottom right say?

 

What is the temperature dial, the big white knob top left that says "upnor" set to?

 

Can you feel warmth in any or all of the pipes leading into the floor?

[Carrerahill]

What a mess that is in, paint and dust over it all, bloody hole in the wall with wires shoved through! Madness!

 

If there are bits missing as per the engineers observations and assuming they are from the contractor who supplied/installed this, then I would suggest they should be looking into it. Do you know a neighbour well enough to go and have a look at theirs?

 

 

[ProDave]

You have a different make of manifold to the others.  You are missing the flow meters / adjusters. That won't stop it working,  but will mean there is no way to balance the flows so one room may heat up quicker than the others.

 

There will be a control box out of the photo and because it is a different make of manifold, it will almost certainly have a different make of control box.  Again that is not "wrong"

[JFDIY]

You don't need flow restrictors if you swap to the salus self balancing actuators, that would save changing the manifold and draining it etc.

 

As mentioned above, is the pump running and do the main manifold sections get warm?

 

Also I could be wrong but I've only ever seen the actuators on the return to manifold, yours appear to be on the supply side, is there a chance the higher pressure on the supply side is blowing them closed and closing off the flow to the zones?

Edited January 15, 2020 by JFDIY

[joth]

2 hours ago, tsmith said:

From day 1 my underfloor heating always seemed slow to warm up and patchy. But assumed that was normal - heard it can take 2 to 5 hours to heat. The flooring is Amtico

 

Key thing is what are the pipes embedded in, underneath the amtico? Assuming it's a large mass of concrete, it will have a high heat capacity you need to pump a lot of energy (warmth) it to warm it all up before you'll start to feel much coming up through the amtico. Whoever has the lowest floor  flat (ground floor, or basement if there is one) will likely have slower warmup reactions and overall need to keep the UFH running longer (more total kWh spent) because the underside of the concrete will presumably be colder than all the other floors. It's possible (if unlikely) that someone actually specified the ground floor UFH a bit differently to handle a higher workload. Also a common design in larger blocks would be to put the common services & communal boiler etc into the basement, which helps offset that issue a bit.

 

 

[tsmith]

Thanks for all the amazing feedback everyone!

More images below. Status after having heating on continuous for 30mins

1) Its a pressure gauge not temp gauge showing just over 3 bar?

2) Engineer took off the white device - is that motorised mixing valve? He tried to depress the metal pin down with head of screwdriver even with significant force he struggled to depress the pin so he struggled to see how the white device would have the power to depress it - does that make sense?

3) The pipe work to the left of the ESBE device is red hot to the touch - everything to the right of ESBE device is somewhere between cold and luke warm - barely any heat at all in any of the pipes - including those entering the ground. Had heating on circa 10 hours - floor was warm after that time. All thermostats are set to 27 degrees + and room temp was nowhere near that.

4) Is the pump running, can you hear it or are there any lights on it?
No lights on it but I can hear it running I think

5) What is the temperature dial, the big white knob top left that says "upnor" set to?
It has no temperature on it. See comments on pics. Its looks like it some kind of on/off mechanism? Theres a red indicator inside it by the looks - should that be in down position?

6) What are the pipes embedded in, underneath the amtico?

Dont know. I am on ground floor. Theres multiple low rise blocks being serviced by central source circa 500 metres from me. Feedback from resident on non ground floor in another block is his takes 2 hours+ to get warm. Another guy in my block - not ground floor - where engineers just visited - reported same issues - of different design - have quoted him £250 parts and £250 labour for fixes. Engineer admitted to me he is a generic electrician and not an underfloor expert. Can anyone recommend an underfloor expert in London area please?

7) Im awaiting photos from my neighbours in our block. It looks like our entire block is different make to other blocks. Im 8 years in to 10 years of NHBC warranty. Doubt they will do anything as its broadly "working"?


 

[Temp]

Some details of Upnor system found here..

 https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.uponor.co.uk/UponorInternet/DirectDownload%3Fdid%3DFB33D8E3EE2B446C843445EAB8072E5C&ved=2ahUKEwjB-5eK84bnAhWoQkEAHYIDBaAQFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw2qah0XpriH13eszIJcs9Kg

 

Should link to a pdf file. See page 49 for info on the mixer & white actuator.

 

The white actuator should indeed move the pin up and down.  With the white part removed the pin should be up, with it fitted and off the pin should be down.

 

The hexagonal part is turned to set the max an min temperatures after installation. It's not 100% clear from the instructions if pin down = off or minimum temperature. I'm wondering if the pin is stuck down giving you minimum temperature which the instructions says is normally 35C? That would explain why the engineer couldn't push it down himself (it's already down). You could try pulling it up.

 

I think I would try finding someone familiar with Upnor UFH systems and get them to check the system over.

 

Edited January 16, 2020 by Temp

[tsmith]

Thanks Temp. Just had the system on for 2hours+. Manifold pipes are hotter now - including ones entering floor. And heat is starting to come through the amtico. Floor temp is below luke warm to the touch still. Maybe as Im ground floor Im looking for 3 hours plus to get to full temperature?

Is it worth a thermal imaging survey do you think?

https://www.red-current.com/thermal-imaging-surveys/under-floor-heating

[Temp]

I don't think I would pay for a survey yet. I think if you still have issues I'd call Upnor and see if they can recommend an engineer to check the system over. Perhaps someone in one of the other flats can recommend one?

 

Regarding the heating up time.. let's suppose all the room stats have been turned down low for 8 hours so the house is cold. Then you turn one up to 22C... The blue Upnor loop actuator will take a few mins to open and  within about 10min the flow pipe to the floor loop should be as hot as the output from the white mixer/actuator (35-45C). The floor and room temperature might take a further 2 hours to reach the temperature set on the room stat and then stat will close the blue actuator. 

 

What the floor feels like will depend on the temperature the white actuator produces but the floor should never feel as hot as a rad which can be 60C.

 

What we do is set the room stats to 16C at night. That's effectively off except on very cold nights. Then two hours before waking up its set to increase to 20 or 21C which it reaches as we are waking up. Then again in the evening it switches down to 16C about 2 hours before bed (but it stays warmer than that).

 

[Jeremy Harris]

As above, the floor shouldn't really ever feel warm to the touch, as it should always be a lot cooler than body body temperature.  How warm the floor needs to be depends on the heating requirement, and is normally expressed in terms of heat output per unit area for a given room temperature. 

 

A cheap IT thermometer will do the job of measuring the floor temperature OK, just needs to be pointed at the floor in various locations and the temperature noted.  Loads of them on sale on ebay and the like.  I bought this one (seen measuring the wall temperature) several years ago for around £10 and it's still going strong:

 

 

You can estimate the heat output per square metre of floor by knowing the room temperature and the floor surface temperature.  The figures below assume a room temperature of 21°C and give the floor surface temperature versus the heat output in W/m², and may help give an idea as to what to expect.  It's rare for UFH to need to run at more than around 50 W to 60 W/m².  Ours (albeit in a  very well insulated house) rarely runs at more than about 20 W/m².

 

Heat output = 20W/m²    Floor temperature = 23.1°C

 

Heat output = 30W/m²   Floor temperature = 24.0°C

 

Heat output = 40W/m²    Floor temperature = 24.9°C

 

Heat output = 50W/m²    Floor temperature = 25.8°C

 

Heat output = 60W/m²    Floor temperature = 26.7°C

 

Heat output = 70W/m²    Floor temperature = 27.5°C