Testing cabling

[Onoff]

I've a slightly out of date test and inspection guide here you're welcome too. Fundamental testing remains the same tbh.

 

 

The Scadden books are pretty good imo but for belt and braces the latest Guidance Note 3 is probably the best bet (about £27). Lots of clear, pretty pictures.

 

I know I'm rarely serious but dead testing prior to energizing a circuit is a must. Saved the day for me on many an occasion. Done properly it'll flag up your and other's mistakes and tbh isn't that hard to do. 

 

An all singing all dancing Megger multi function tester is around the £800 mark now. Of course you have to know how to use it.

[Jeremy Harris]

On the subject of MFTs, you can often pick up a second hand one for a couple of hundred pounds or less.  Mine's pretty old now, but IIRC it cost me about £150.  It's a PITA to use, as the test button is on the right (must have been designed by a left handed person), but it stays in cal and I knocked up a proving unit to check it before I use it, just to be reasonably sure it's still in spec (no point paying for a proper calibration for my use, anyway).

 

It seems that some electricians MUST have the latest MFT, so often seem to sell off perfectly good units on eBay, Gumtree etc.  I bought mine via a friend of a friend years ago, who bought it back when part P first came out, then started working for one of the big contractors locally and got issued with a much nicer machine.

[Markblox]

Although Part P is designed for the electrician to design, install, test and certify installation, unless I'm wrong (entirely possible), a three part certificate can always be used where the design, installation and testing has separate signatures. The regs don't say that you must be qualified but do say you must be a  competant person.

Please give me your thoughts as to the three sig cert as I don't know the score with a domestic installation.

[Jeremy Harris]

Right now, it seems that some building control bodies will only accept a lodged electronic EIC from a member of one of the competent person schemes.  Technically this seems wrong, as there should be the option for any competent person (not just someone registered with one of the cartels) to do the design and installation, with someone that holds the required third party inspection and test chit coming along afterwards to inspect, test and sign off the work.

 

In practice it seems hard to find anyone that holds the required third party inspection and test chit.  I tried, and failed, as it seems that none of the Part P cartels encourage their members to do third party inspection and test, and none of the local building control bodies here had anyone on their books that could do it.

 

If this option was practical, then the person doing the work would still have to sign off the design and installation parts of the IEC, and the person doing the third party inspection and test would have to have a degree of trust that the person that had done the design and installation was competent.  As far as liability goes, then in my view doing a third party inspection and test is no different to doing an EIRC on an existing installation, and that doesn't require membership of any of the Part P cartels.  I do a few EICRs, for example, and being retired I'm prohibited from being a member of one of the cartels (none will accept retired people as members).

[Markblox]

4 minutes ago, Jeremy Harris said:

Right now, it seems that some building control bodies will only accept a lodged electronic EIC from a member of one of the competent person schemes.  Technically this seems wrong, as there should be the option for any competent person (not just someone registered with one of the cartels) to do the design and installation, with someone that holds the required third party inspection and test chit coming along afterwards to inspect, test and sign off the work.

 

In practice it seems hard to find anyone that holds the required third party inspection and test chit.  I tried, and failed, as it seems that none of the Part P cartels encourage their members to do third party inspection and test, and none of the local building control bodies here had anyone on their books that could do it.

 

If this option was practical, then the person doing the work would still have to sign off the design and installation parts of the IEC, and the person doing the third party inspection and test would have to have a degree of trust that the person that had done the design and installation was competent.  As far as liability goes, then in my view doing a third party inspection and test is no different to doing an EIRC on an existing installation, and that doesn't require membership of any of the Part P cartels.  I do a few EICRs, for example, and being retired I'm prohibited from being a member of one of the cartels (none will accept retired people as members).

 

Interesting reply, thanks.

 

 Right from the start of Part P it was criticised that qualified and competent people were screwed unless they belonged to a scheme. 

I was in a scheme and have 2360 and 2391 but am now very rusty and haven't got the latest ticket so it's a bit of a dilemma but I'm sure one way or the other it can be resolved and wonder if a three sig cert would work.

 

 From memory though the compliance notice is just a digital compliance notice and not a digital certificate that is lodged so that would indicate that perhaps it could be done.

 

I seem to remember that you can do one off Part P certification but I would have to take the latest exam so probably best to get a friendly Part P electrician to inspect visually, and test random circuits that I have done, a bit like the annual Part P inspector test.

 

Bit away into the future as negotiating at the moment for a plot in North Dorset area for a small plot about a dozen miles West South West of you.

[Pocster]

1 hour ago, Jeremy Harris said:

 

 

How is the electrician who signs this off going to be able to sign to say that he has seen all of the cable runs, that all are in compliance with the requirements, including supports, clipped securely at not more than the maximum allowable cable clip spacing, cable physical protection provided where required, cables in both the right zones and at least 50mm below surfaces, no serviceable connections in inaccessible locations etc?

 

Is the electrician going to lie when he "signs" the IEC and states that he/she can confirm that all wiring is run as per the requirements?

I took photos of everything so will walk him through it . Anything he doesn’t like I’ll change . The arrangement I have with the sparky is he checks as I go . So any issues are resolved before final fix .

Edited January 10, 2020 by pocster

[MrMagic]

Kudos to you @pocster for finding someone willing to work with you on the install, it seems like a sensible and pragmatic approach you've got going on there with photographic evidence and such.

 

Pulling cables and doing back boxes is donkey work at the end of the day (no offence intended) so provided you're in agreement with the sparky theres no reason they can't be off earning elsewhere whilst you do the more manual work.

 

(Usual disclaimers apply, if unsure seek professional assistance, know your limits, follow the regs, and please please don't forget grommets on metal back boxes!! etc blah blah)

 

Edited January 10, 2020 by MrMagic

[Dreadnaught]

30 minutes ago, MrMagic said:

Pulling cables and doing back boxes is donkey work at the end of the day

 

I thought the same, so it being work ideal for me. I asked a sparky if I could do this on my build and he was reluctant, saying he wanted the whole job.

[Onoff]

6 hours ago, Jeremy Harris said:

Mine's pretty old now, but IIRC it cost me about £150

 

My best Megger meter was £800 at the time. I bought it unused off a mate where his firm folded with the governors disappearing into the night and he was left with all his supplied tools. He walked straight into another job so sold the tools on. The mad thing is he has pretty much zero electrical knowledge and was employed as a general maintenance man with a van and the meter was still boxed up. I gave him £130 from memory. It only does RCDs and earth loop impedance though. My insulation tester, again Megger is stand alone. 

 

 

[SteamyTea]

11 hours ago, Markblox said:

I seem to remember that you can do one off Part P certification but I would have to take the latest exam so probably best to get a friendly Part P electrician to inspect visually, and test random circuits that I have done, a bit like the annual Part P inspector test.

 

The Part P I did was limited scope, is that what you are referring to.

If I remember correctly, it was set up so that PV installers could wire in an inverter, plumbers could do a boiler or shower, kitchen fitters a cooker and move some sockets.

There was a lot of general safety stuff and testing.

All very basic, but sensible.

[Jeremy Harris]

It seems that a fair few of the limited scope or reduced fee cartel membership options have now been removed.  I suspect the reasoning has more to do with maximising income for the Part P cartels than anything associated with electrical safety.  For example, NAPIT scrapped the "Just Eight" scheme, which was ideal for any competent person who wasn't doing a lot of Part P work a year.  The membership fee was something like half that of full membership, but you were limited to only being able to notify 8 Part P jobs using the database access a year.  Still  had reduced price access to all the books etc.

 

My old Telaris Unitest does pretty much everything, and stores all the results in order so they can be read out as a serial text for putting on the certificate, but it is an awkward thing to use.  It also only does a 500V insulation resistance test, and there have been a couple of times when having the option to test at 1000 V would have been handy.  It does do non-trip loop testing, though, so must have been quite a reasonable bit of kit back when it first came out.

 

[Pocster]

11 hours ago, MrMagic said:

Kudos to you @pocster for finding someone willing to work with you on the install, it seems like a sensible and pragmatic approach you've got going on there with photographic evidence and such.

 

Pulling cables and doing back boxes is donkey work at the end of the day (no offence intended) so provided you're in agreement with the sparky theres no reason they can't be off earning elsewhere whilst you do the more manual work.

 

(Usual disclaimers apply, if unsure seek professional assistance, know your limits, follow the regs, and please please don't forget grommets on metal back boxes!! etc blah blah)

 

First of all when I spoke to him over the phone he wasn't that keen. Once he met me though he was hooked.

His original concerns where I'd do it "my way" not his and he feared we'd argue over the right method.

I explained to him that he is the electrician not me! - so I"ll do what he wants.

Also to supply and wire a basic house his cost was around 3k - a more complex system (like I have with HA ) he said around 5k.

He knows nothing about HA so is really interested in what I do. I very briefly told him my HA ambitions ; he was really really interested.

 

So I was lucky that I could find a willing and trusting sparky!

[Markblox]

6 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

The Part P I did was limited scope, is that what you are referring to.

If I remember correctly, it was set up so that PV installers could wire in an inverter, plumbers could do a boiler or shower, kitchen fitters a cooker and move some sockets.

There was a lot of general safety stuff and testing.

All very basic, but sensible.

No, not limited scope. With that you can run in one new circuit I think but can't replace CU's.  What I am talking about is a one off install but I might well be imagining it all, it's a memory that is right at the back of the head, just behind my right ear!

[Markblox]

3 hours ago, pocster said:

First of all when I spoke to him over the phone he wasn't that keen. Once he met me though he was hooked.

His original concerns where I'd do it "my way" not his and he feared we'd argue over the right method.

I explained to him that he is the electrician not me! - so I"ll do what he wants.

Also to supply and wire a basic house his cost was around 3k - a more complex system (like I have with HA ) he said around 5k.

He knows nothing about HA so is really interested in what I do. I very briefly told him my HA ambitions ; he was really really interested.

 

So I was lucky that I could find a willing and trusting sparky!

Sounds like a good solution for both of you.  

 

That is completely different from someone just doing a very dodgy DIY job and then getting a ticket for it which is all too common.

 

Any sparks will tell you that sorting out DIY bodges is not only common but a PITA and often expensive too.

[Pocster]

13 minutes ago, Markblox said:

Sounds like a good solution for both of you.  

 

That is completely different from someone just doing a very dodgy DIY job and then getting a ticket for it which is all too common.

 

Any sparks will tell you that sorting out DIY bodges is not only common but a PITA and often expensive too.

The sparky will install the CU and wire everything into that also all the DIN rail stuff.

So I am just doing the donkey work. In my experience over the entire build this is where you make the savings.

[Onoff]

11 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

The Part P I did was limited scope, is that what you are referring to.

If I remember correctly, it was set up so that PV installers could wire in an inverter, plumbers could do a boiler or shower, kitchen fitters a cooker and move some sockets.

There was a lot of general safety stuff and testing.

All very basic, but sensible.

 

I've a Part P certificate. EAL I think was my course. They mean jack schidt unless you join a scheme. 

[SteamyTea]

4 hours ago, Onoff said:

They mean jack schidt unless you join a scheme. 

Yes, but as I needed it for my job it did not matter.