Goods delivered to site

[MaryM]

Hi there, some of you will be familiar with the long ramblings about my garage work on other threads, this is connected but not about the quality of work

 

I know this is a self-build forum but maybe something similar happens if you're having stuff delivered?

 

my builder's price included some kitchen units which were delivered on 21 Oct, I stopped work on 23 Oct so the stuff is sitting in my garage

 

it can't be fitted until the builder undoes his work that doesn't comply with building regs, which I've paid him for and is now in dispute, I'm asking him to remove the non-compliant work and refund the cost of doing it, he's ignored that

 

he's now sent me another invoice for the kitchen units, on reduced 4-day terms

 

his invoices all say 'all materials remain the property of xxxx Construction until paid for in full'

 

I've asked for a credit note covering the disputed works, he will ignore that as he's ignored every request for help in regularising the job, so I've said as an alternative he can take the kitchen stuff away as it must still be his property because I haven't paid for it

 

what do people think, can he force me to pay for stuff that he says is his property?

[ProDave]

I put that "all property is mine until paid for" clause on my invoices.  It's just another lever if the job goes bad, which never happens to me.

 

I can't see this ending anywhere other than court at the moment. I don't have a solution.

[andyscotland]

It's fairly standard for supply contracts to have a clause like that, but it doesn't mean the contract for sale can't be enforced.

 

It's primarily there in case you go bankrupt, so the supplier can get the materials back rather than having to join the queue of unsecured creditors.

 

In general terms, unless you have a right to cancel/return goods then as soon as you order them you can be forced to pay for them. If you don't pay then the goods might be taken in part-payment of the debt but they would not necessarily be valued at the full sale price and you might still owe for any balance to account for the supplier's lost profit/overheads.

 

In your specific case, however, then assuming the builder bought them on your behalf I'd argue they are part and parcel of the work he has failed to deliver. And as such are no different to e.g. timber he's already fitted to the building/any other materials. 

 

Your contract (which may be verbal) is for supply and fit, and can't be retrospectively be split off to supply only. If he's not fitted them he has not delivered his side of the contract, so shouldn't be paid at all. Until/unless you both go through adjudication and come up with a settlement/route forward for the project as a whole.

 

So I would be taking the line that you are not paying for them until they're fitted, and if he wants to return/sell them he can take them away.

[MaryM]

@andyscotland  thank you yet again

 

I have a one-hour fixed-fee appt with a solicitor on Friday,  trying to get all the ends together before

 

chatting with a friend last evening he said exactly what you've said above about contract to supply & fit (it was) which hasn't been delivered

 

have also asked the trade association to accelerate the resolution asap, it's like wading through treacle, I asked the builder to hold the matter in abeyance till we'd had an adjudication but no luck there

 

I don't have a problem with paying for the kitchen stuff, but he already has my money for the work in dispute and won't consider a credit in the meantime

 

on top of that, the estimate states his usual 7-day terms, with no agreed interim/stage payments, this latest invoice has reduced 4-day terms on it, he doesn't stick to ANYTHING (sorry for shouty capitals, I am so frustrated)

 

also notice he's changed his website advertising about 'working closely with building control to ensure that your project meets all building regulations' and it now says 'where applicable .... relevant building regulations' after I pointed out what he was promising, then saying I should have done it (building control)

 

[andyscotland]

@MaryM you're doing all the right things. You may (if you want them) end up paying for the kitchen units but as you say it needs to be considered as part of overall settlement including money you've already paid him for work not done/work done with defects etc.

 

As you have already raised a dispute with him, and started the ball rolling on adjudication, he can't realistically pursue you for payment through the courts/any third party until the dispute is resolved. And it's very unlikely down the line anyone would uphold any interest/late charges etc against you for not paying until that was all settled particularly as you have already paid his earlier invoices. So whatever he thinks, for all intents and purposes the matter is held in abeyance at this point.

 

So he can (and potentially will) send you increasingly firm messages etc asking for payment. But they have no teeth - so I would just respond to each chaser with a clear but firm "As I have told you, I'm not paying anything further till the dispute is resolved" and otherwise ignore them.

[MaryM]

@andyscotland that's incredibly helpful, I did think having initiated the resolution he was so keen to avoid would put things on hold so the additional invoice yesterday was a big shock

 

I do hope the solicitor on Friday can tie up the Consumer Rights advice and I'm hoping for a simple letter asking the builder to lay off until adjudication, his fee for the one hour meeting is very reasonable and I'm happy to pay for one letter, fingers crossed

[ToughButterCup]

One thing that any professional person dealing with this issue will ask about (or rather should ask about) is a description of what both parties have done to resolve the matter informally.

If you can evidence that process, that will be helpful. Keep contemporaneous notes.

[MaryM]

8 minutes ago, AnonymousBosch said:

One thing that any professional person dealing with this issue will ask about (or rather should ask about) is a description of what both parties have done to resolve the matter informally.

If you can evidence that process, that will be helpful. Keep contemporaneous notes.

@AnonymousBosch  thanks and yes, I have everything in writing, I got a text message last week about trying to bodge removal of a plasterboard wall to dodge BC but asked for written confirmation of exemption from the council, nothing after that till the latest invoice

[ToughButterCup]

@MaryM, I don't know anything about your previous experience of the building sector and invoicing: my knowledge was scant - until we decided to build. I hope the following doesn't patronise.

 

Thus far we have had contractors present invoices as a bare number - no detail, no information other than an account number, contractors who simply dont do what they say they will and present a fantasy invoice, contractors who demand money for work done so badly that we've had to spend a good chunk of money putting it right. And lastly someone who - without good reason - presented us with a Letter Before Action using an out of date protocol.

 

In each case SWMBO - because of her experience of local trades folk - put some lead in my pencil: in each case we have stuck to our guns - and on the basis of evidence ( video, time lapse images, photographs, meeting notes, email exchanges, and lists of unsuccessful attempts to make contact - phone logs) point out that the money asked for was either wrong, or unjustifiable. 

Its an unpleasant thing to have do - challenge someones request for money. But, as SWMBO pointed out, money paid off-invoice, or overpaid can be thought of as deducted from the amount of money we have left to spend on the kitchen.

 

And There Be Dragons.?

 

 

[MaryM]

34 minutes ago, AnonymousBosch said:

@MaryM,money paid off-invoice, or overpaid can be thought of as deducted from the amount of money we have left to spend on the kitchen.

 

And There Be Dragons.?

 

 

@AnonymousBosch  not patronising in the least and the quote above an interesting approach!  I do know quite a bit about invoicing for building work, by virtue of doing the accounts for this particular builder for 6 years, 9 years ago he begged me to help out as he was 3 years behind filing tax/VAT returns, I computerised his records and bashed out & filed 3 years' returns one after the other, recovered a stack of cash he'd had to pay on account to both Inland Revenue and Customs & Excise, then continued working for him managing his trade & client accounts, CIS for his subbies, tax and VAT, and as signatory to his bank account, everything was done with absolute accuracy, transparency and on time.  

 

I am accountable to the Association of Chartered Certified Accountants and have to conduct myself to the highest standards of business ethics, he knows that and accordingly knows I do not bend or break rules, he relied on my professional expertise for all that time and I never let him down, which is why I'm so disappointed he's let me down and won't talk about putting things right

 

I did encounter every one of the 'unusual' invoicing practices you list, it caused a lot of bust-ups because I wouldn't allow presentation of fudged invoices or pay fudged requests from subbies, but I stuck to my guns to protect him because if he had a Revenue or VAT inspection (both of which I have managed many times for clients) I know how much detail is required and said his records must be squeaky clean

 

because of trouble when he allowed incompetent people to present costings that didn't stand up, I set up a thorough cost accounting system for him and de-fused a couple of disputes with very annoyed clients, I thought he had learned from this but it seems not, I was treated as 'unreasonable' when I asked for details of what lump-sum invoices I'd paid were actually for

 

copy of a clip from a statement he sent me in connection with my disputed work, you may be able to see why I don't rely on his numbers!

 

I stopped working for him 3 years ago because he'd taken on another incompetent person who couldn't work out 20% VAT and I couldn't stand any more grief, I'm now pushing 70 and not as strong-minded as when I'm working, so the incredibly helpful support I've had from this forum is more useful than I can express, thank you to everyone who's made suggestions and I am taking every and all advice on board in trying to formulate a response, apologies if I've repeated myself and bored anyone who's read my other threads, the worry is not doing my lucidity a lot of good

[ToughButterCup]

Ughhhh, what a tangled tale. 

The only defense I can see is -possibly- tiredness, and overtrading. Pressure to get the work done (I'm good at my job, but not the paperwork), and failure to appoint the right people to manage the paperwork.

I'm so glad to hear that you have a solid background in dealing with this sort of issue: frankly its a relief. We sometimes get members who are not up to dealing with unscrupulous trading practice.

BH has supported me too - saved me a huge amount of money. So its good to be able to return some of the help I've been given.

Good luck with the rest of the process!

Ian