Plumbers pipes - to be wall or floor mounted

[Katy]

Hi I am refurbishing a property, and the kitchen is proving to be a very tricky room in terms of planning and design - especially the floor as space for floor build up here is really tight - 142 ml from top of concrete slab to top of tile.

 

Floor build up

• DPM 1200 gauge (installed)
• 100mml poured concrete slab (installed)
• 60 ml insulation (awaiting installation)
• wet UFH system - polypipe - red trays and 15mm diameter pipes at 100ml spacings (awaiting installation)
• 65 ml screed (awaiting installation)
• adhesive and tile (awaiting installation)

 

The kitchen floor is currently under construction.  there is 100ml poured concrete slab in situ.  On TOP of this the plumber HAD floor mounted all the pipes - gas, water - softened and un-softened.  Insulation, then screed was laid on top.  These pipes were floor mounted at the periphery of the room, on top of which would sit tall kitchen units.

 

Due to screed failure, I had to take up the screed, UFH system, insulation - All of it.   Newly appointed second Builder came along - then questioned why the plumbers pipes are floor mounted?  said it would lead to screed failure as 65 ml minimum thickness would become much lesser and therefore risk of cracking and said that actually the plumbers pipes should all be wall mounted, a) for access b) to not be within or impact the screed.  

 

So the poor plumber has actually started to rip up all those pipes.  

 

There will be some plumbing pipes on top of the concrete slab though - gas supply to the island and radiator pipe as (UFH will not be sufficient as sole and only source of heating)

 

The electrician subsequently came and did all his first fix and he too has floor mounted all his cabling in 2cm conduits, rather than ceiling down with all his chasing and cabling (I can only presume was easiest route for them) and 1st floor was boarded up with tongue and groove chipboard.

 

Im now pondering whether asking the poor plumber to rip up all his pipework and wall mount is actually the right thing to do??  Ive lost trust in a lot of tradesmen and even 2nd appointed builder isnt thinking about the whole project holistically and im having to work out alot of things for myself.  

 

So the question is if youre refurbishing a kitchen (NOT an extension) and done away with the suspended timber floor, poured concrete and then laying insulation, Wet UFH system and then 65 ml screed - is it NORMAL (common practice) to wall mount the plumbers pipes?  If so, should that be above screed level, or can it be wall mounted within the screed. 

 

I spoke to the kitchen firm - they confirmed a 10cm plinth above the screed which can hold pipes of any diameter, above that are tall kitchen housing units with integrated appliances with only a 2cm void.  Ive looked at what remains of plumbers current floor mounted pipes - there are 4 - two of which are 5cm in diameter each with the insulation surround.  Kitchen firm suggested to try and keep plumbers pipes in 10cm plinth area but they wont all fit there.  Or for the pipes to be still wall mounted but within the screed layer.  

 

 

[ProDave]

What are you meaning by "plumbers pipes"?  Surely you are not talking about the under floor heating pipes?

 

And you can't blame the trades for chasing the floor to get services to an island. Just what else do you expect them to do?

[Big Jimbo]

That is why planning is so important. you have the drawings, and spec. You knew what the floor build up was going to be, and now you are asking all the other trades to work around the fact that the floor make up is causing an issue. If you had said to the sparky at the quote stage, that you wanted all of the wires run through the ceiling and dropped down the walls, then he would have quoted you for that. If you did'nt tell him that, and it was not on any spec, or drawings that you gave him to quote from, then i'm afraid that's called bad planning.

[Big Jimbo]

As for having to work a lot of things out yourself. That would be because your spec, and drawings are not up to scratch. Sorry. There will always be things that will have been missed, and things that crop up during the project, and decisions will have to be made. Say i was project managing your project. I would be ringing you up abroad in your villa, and saying, " The sparky has arrived, and i've picked him up on the fact that he wants to run his wires across the floor. (Easiest route) " He says that there was nothing in the spec that he quoted from, that you wanted ceiling wires with drops, and that is going to cost you more. I would be telling you that unless you want to bin him off, (at the risk of being sued due to breaking his contract) and start getting new quotes from sparkies, (and delay the job) then you hav'nt get much option other than to pay him.

[Big Jimbo]

If you are going to have wall mounted pipes, make sure some careful planning is done, or when your kitchen fitter comes to fit your nice new dishwasher, it wont go back to the wall due to the pipes that will be in the way. How many times over the years have we all seen people's dishwashers, washing machines etc sticking out a bit, and not quite flush with the cupboard doors either side. The reason is because the plug socket, and a load of pipes supplying the sink, anr behind the appliances. Bad planning.

[Ferdinand]

Welcome.

 

Personally, were I doing a renovation with a new slab in the floor, I would not bury pipes or wires in the screed or slab simply for maintainability reasons, studding out the wall where necessary.

 

It sounds, as has been remarked, that the Planning / Supervision may have been insufficient.

 

If they are wall mounted I would not see a need to conduit the electrics, or in extremis perhaps even insulate the water pipes. I would aim to minimise plumbing runs, but elec would need to go everywhere as I fit a *lot* of sockets.

Ferdinand

 

[Katy]

Yes I agree the planning and execution has been terrible with very costly mistakes.  This is the 2nd time now.  

 

The 1st time screed failed and cowboy builder.  So I had to rip up entire floor!  2nd time, changed builder - again no proper planning despite thinking we were thinking and planning! 

 

The second overall builder still hasn’t realised there is a problem.  He knew the plan with the floor and instructed plumber to rip up his pre-installed pipes on concrete floor to wall mount; but didn’t say a word to electrician when he saw all of their floor pipes being floor mounted. That has annoyed the electrician and the two are not on talking terms now. 

 

Its actually one one of the electricians who retrospectively commented their approach wasn’t ideal.

 

The electrician can re-wire (at additional cost £1300); not ideal for him or me but he will do if I request. 

 

Subsequently the plumbers pipes - gas and water feeds (there’s 4 pipes in total ....) could then I guess be chased into the bricks, ie above the finished floor level but behind the units.  There is a 10cm plinth above FFL, where pipework can be of any diameter but then above that the void behind kitchen cabinets is only 2cm. 

 

Plumber has yet yet to install drainage waste pipes for sink and DW -  anyone know what diameter that would be? And if they’re usually wall mounted or chased into wall (my walls are all brick - so chasing not easy) 

 

then likely the builder would have to re-board the kitchen a 2nd time if re-wiring ceiling down. 

 

It all sounds a shame and disruptive and expensive - but is this the path I should be taking???

 

Other idea I had is to maybe chase concrete slab for the electrics conduit and plumbers pipes to fit snugly there.  I’ve been quoted bout £800. And then insulation can sit flat on top with minimal chasing.  Is this an OK alternative? The obvious issue is access for maintenance if ever plumbers pipes or electrical cabling ever fail.   How often does that happen?  The plumbers pipes are all copper and the electricians cabling is all in galvanised steel conduit. 

 

Option 3 - chase out insulation for electrician pipes and wall mount plumbers pipes - can’t chase in these as electricians pipes running floor up chased in already. 

 

Any suggestions on what remedial approach I should take given circumstances???? 

 

Many thanks 

 

 

 

 

[Mr Punter]

You can run pipes and wires under and behind kitchen units.  For the island these will need to run under the floor then come up.  You could create a channel in the floor or you could create a small tunnel for the pipes to sit in with 30mm insulation above and 30mm supporting either side.

 

You really need to minimise what goes under the floor and keep any joins and fittings to as few as possible.

 

60mm is fairly poor for insulation and UFH.  Why not have more insulation and lose the screed and have an overboard system?  You can still have a tiled finish.