Upgrading ex council house- what to go for?

[Crofter]

Asking for a friend...

 

Ex council house currently served by an open fire with back boiler feeding radiators. DHW off this system with additional electric immersino heater.

 

The owner wants to rent the house out and is thinking that it would be beneficial to update this system but obviously does not want to embark upon a major project at high cost. I am advising him to research ASHP or, if he is feeling brave about future energy prices, just go for oil. No mains gas, unfortunately. He is interested in a multifuel stove but my feeling is that prospective tenants would not want the hassle, and most people these days don't expect to wake up to a cold house, which you would get unless you incorporated a TS.

[Stones]

Air to air heat pump for heating and E7 for DHW? I suspect that would be the lowest capital cost option and reasonable in terms of running costs for tenants.  

 

 

[ProDave]

How old is it? how well insulated?

 

For simplicity for rental E10 and storage heaters (though I would not have them for my own house) virtually nothing to go wrong and no servicing or safety certificates needed.

 

A tenant won't understand a heat pump. They struggle to understand things like why a bathroom fan operates (and then complain about the mould when they have disabled the fan)

 

I would not personally let a tenant play with real fire in a house I owned.
 

[Nickfromwales]

I wouldn't wish storage heaters on my worst enemy. I lived in my brothers house for 2 years when he moved out to shack up and it was all electric E7 etc. No ta. 

For simpliclty and reliability just fit an external oil combi, and an electric shower. I'm a fan of cooking on gas, as I can't afford a swanky top notch electric hot plate / induction doobery, so I'd also recommend fitting an LPG hob with electric oven ( dual fuel ). Reports are that a tall ( 47kg ) bottle can last up to a year in a regular household. 

For the heating system, power flush the existing radiator pipework and fit new radiators and valves. Radiator packs with the likes of MrCentralHeating are cheap as chips, so no excuse there. Make sure that the tenancy agreement allows access to check the oil levels and to include penalties for allowing the oil to run out, ( the cost of an engineer cleaning the filters and unlocking the boiler ). Fit a sonic tank level meter so at the 1/4 empty point you / they can request a refill without having to do anything physical. 

ASHP will be a non starter unless there are some SERIOUS upgrades to insulation and draught-proofing. They'll be better off at that stage with a direct electric boiler most likely. A house of that nature will require high grade heat for the space heating and dhw, so not well matched to that application at all IMHO. Cost of all of those upgrades vs payback becomes a factor along with longevity of the HP ( with it being overworked ). Without a buffer, all the defrost would be via direct electric too so I'd not even consider it unless you were to oversize the radiators sufficiently to get the target flow temp below 40 / 45oC. 

A good oil combi boiler a bit over £2k

A decent sized tank change of £1k ( with fittings )

Any plumber can fit the whole lot, except when it comes to commissioning you need an OFTEC installer. Best to get them to do the tank and oil lines too, and ask for their insurances against damage from oil leak contamination. Check if you'll need it independently as a landlord too, in case of loss relating from theft.  

Consider a more recognised and user friendly system so that you'll easily attract tennants, and it's simple to run / use. 

There will be a good resale value too with a typical house fitted with a good heating and hot water system. 

 

[Crofter]

11 hours ago, Stones said:

Air to air heat pump for heating and E7 for DHW? I suspect that would be the lowest capital cost option and reasonable in terms of running costs for tenants.  

 

 

The DHW could stay as-is I suppose, but install an E7 meter.

What sort of ballpark figure would an ATAHP be? The prices don't seem to be readily available online unlike e.g. oil boilers.

 

It's a 2 bedroom house by the way so not enormous. I don't know the exact size but it must be in the region of 80m2.

[Crofter]

10 hours ago, ProDave said:

How old is it? how well insulated?

1960s at a guess. Cavities are filled and there is some loft insulation, not sure how much. Suspended timber floors, not insulated. Timber double glazing about 15 years old.

 

10 hours ago, ProDave said:

For simplicity for rental E10 and storage heaters (though I would not have them for my own house) virtually nothing to go wrong and no servicing or safety certificates needed.

 

A tenant won't understand a heat pump. They struggle to understand things like why a bathroom fan operates (and then complain about the mould when they have disabled the fan)

 

I would not personally let a tenant play with real fire in a house I owned.
 

Yes I know you seem to have had some bad experiences with tenants. My thinking is that it is probably worth upgrading the house a bit to move it up the price range and avoid being the cheapest rental on the market. Storage heaters would involve a fair bit of work though, removing the existing radiators and running new wiring around the brick and plaster walls. Also I don't think the owner would want to be locked into a system with high running costs as he is currently living in the house and may wish to do so again at times in the future.

[Crofter]

7 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

I wouldn't wish storage heaters on my worst enemy. I lived in my brothers house for 2 years when he moved out to shack up and it was all electric E7 etc. No ta. 

For simpliclty and reliability just fit an external oil combi, and an electric shower. I'm a fan of cooking on gas, as I can't afford a swanky top notch electric hot plate / induction doobery, so I'd also recommend fitting an LPG hob with electric oven ( dual fuel ). Reports are that a tall ( 47kg ) bottle can last up to a year in a regular household. 

For the heating system, power flush the existing radiator pipework and fit new radiators and valves. Radiator packs with the likes of MrCentralHeating are cheap as chips, so no excuse there. Make sure that the tenancy agreement allows access to check the oil levels and to include penalties for allowing the oil to run out, ( the cost of an engineer cleaning the filters and unlocking the boiler ). Fit a sonic tank level meter so at the 1/4 empty point you / they can request a refill without having to do anything physical. 

ASHP will be a non starter unless there are some SERIOUS upgrades to insulation and draught-proofing. They'll be better off at that stage with a direct electric boiler most likely. A house of that nature will require high grade heat for the space heating and dhw, so not well matched to that application at all IMHO. Cost of all of those upgrades vs payback becomes a factor along with longevity of the HP ( with it being overworked ). Without a buffer, all the defrost would be via direct electric too so I'd not even consider it unless you were to oversize the radiators sufficiently to get the target flow temp below 40 / 45oC. 

A good oil combi boiler a bit over £2k

A decent sized tank change of £1k ( with fittings )

Any plumber can fit the whole lot, except when it comes to commissioning you need an OFTEC installer. Best to get them to do the tank and oil lines too, and ask for their insurances against damage from oil leak contamination. Check if you'll need it independently as a landlord too, in case of loss relating from theft.  

Consider a more recognised and user friendly system so that you'll easily attract tennants, and it's simple to run / use. 

There will be a good resale value too with a typical house fitted with a good heating and hot water system. 

 

Thanks Nick, good info. I'm likewise a fan of cooking on gas. We had a big dual fuel range cooker in our last house and even running a wok burner etc the 47kg propane cylinder would last about 18 months (admittedly only a 2 person household). Inicidentally, we found that we could get gas at less than two thirds the cost of Calor, and with no bottle deposit, simply by shopping around- although in the scheme of things it's a very small annual cost. However for the house in question a new electric cooker was recently fitted so I guess that will be staying.

 

Is there anything wrong with a cheaper oil boiler? E.g. Screwfix do ones from around £850. I don't think there is anything wrong with the existing DHW tank so what would be the benefit of a combi in this instance?

 

Ta

[ProDave]

I was just giving the landlords perspective.

 

I think storage heaters are an abysmal form of heating, but you have to admit from a landlords perspective what is not to like? they are relable, need no routine maintenance and rarely go wrong.

 

An oil boiler is fine but needs an annual service. And lets hope your tenant fills the oil tank before it runs out. Mine never did. He always waited until the boiler stopped working. Got the bone dry tank filled. Then called me to come and bleed the air out of the oil line to get it running again. Every year, without fail.

 

If the radiators were there and in god order that might be enough to sway it cost wise in favour of an oil boiler.

 

Another off the peg idea is an electric boiler. Combined with an E10 tariff and a reasonably insulated house you can get most of your direct heating at the cheap rate.  I forget the exact times but it's something like 4AM to 7AM so that's your morning warm up at cheap rate. Then 1PM to 4PM so a late afternoon warm up at cheap rate. Then again 8PM to midnight at cheap rate.  So for most people, about the only time you might need to use peak rate to heat the boiler might be in the evening if it has cooled down too much after the late afternoon warm up.    Electric boilers have the advantage of no regular servicing and pretty reliable.

 

Combine that with a direct unvented water tank and that to gets topped up regularly at the cheap rate so plenty of cheap rate hot water.

 

[Ferdinand]

14 hours ago, Crofter said:

Asking for a friend...

 

Ex council house currently served by an open fire with back boiler feeding radiators. DHW off this system with additional electric immersino heater.

 

The owner wants to rent the house out and is thinking that it would be beneficial to update this system but obviously does not want to embark upon a major project at high cost. I am advising him to research ASHP or, if he is feeling brave about future energy prices, just go for oil. No mains gas, unfortunately. He is interested in a multifuel stove but my feeling is that prospective tenants would not want the hassle, and most people these days don't expect to wake up to a cold house, which you would get unless you incorporated a TS.

 

What is the EPC? In England they have to be E or better from I think 2018. Around here I am seeing F properties at what seem to be about 5% lower prices already, though that is subjective. No idea what the requirement is in Scotland but presumably at some stage the Scottish Government was trying to prove its virility vis a vis Westminster so it will need to be arguably better.

 

Will he have to invest for that?

 

And how well is it insulated / ventilated?

 

Giving tenants a multifuel stove is probably playing with fire  .

 

Ferdinand

Edited October 4, 2016 by Ferdinand

[Crofter]

No current EPC- house hasn't changed hands in over ten years. Would one be necessary before being able to let out?

 

I did live in a place with an electric boiler for a short while- it was also ex council. I can see the benefits for the landlord but I don't remember finding it particularly cheap to live in myself.

 

Is it possible to fit some sort of low level cut off for an oil tank, so that it shuts off below a certain level but does not subsequently need to be bled?

[Ferdinand]

10 minutes ago, Crofter said:

No current EPC- house hasn't changed hands in over ten years. Would one be necessary before being able to let out?

 

I did live in a place with an electric boiler for a short while- it was also ex council. I can see the benefits for the landlord but I don't remember finding it particularly cheap to live in myself.

 

Is it possible to fit some sort of low level cut off for an oil tank, so that it shuts off below a certain level but does not subsequently need to be bled?

 

Again - Scottish Law. In England you need one. Checked - see link below - yes you need one.

 

For me the argument against storage heaters is that good tenants just won't take on a place with storage heaters or single glazing (and why should they?), and if you have a house costing £1500-2000 a year in energy and say £5k a year in rent tenants would be more inclined to move, and a tenant change can cost as much as a new boiler, as you know. Do it properly and you can justify extra rent in years 2 onwards more easily.

 

Also - in England some councils may try and enforce on storage heaters them if they happen to get a complaint under the requirement for controllable heating. They may also try to enforce eg 250mm loft insulation. It is all nebulous but the process is the punishment.

 

Again ... Scottish Rules are different. May be worth asking in the Scotland forum of Landlordzone.

 

He will also need to register as an LL. At least in Scotland this is cheap at about £69 for property 1 plus £10 for others for 3 years (if it has not changed), while in England it tends to be about £500-£700 per property for 5 years.

 

https://www.gov.uk/renting-out-your-property-scotland/landlord-responsibilities

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited October 4, 2016 by Ferdinand

[Nickfromwales]

16 minutes ago, Crofter said:

 

Is it possible to fit some sort of low level cut off for an oil tank, so that it shuts off below a certain level but does not subsequently

Sonic sender transmits wirelessly to a receiver in the house. 

 

1 hour ago, ProDave said:

 

An oil boiler is fine but needs an annual service. And lets hope your tenant fills the oil tank before it runs out. Mine never did. He always waited until the boiler stopped working. Got the bone dry tank filled. Then called me to come and bleed the air out of the oil line to get it running again. Every year, without fail.

That's why I said add a penalty clause so it costs them not you . 

[ProDave]

In Scotland you need an EPC to let a property. There is a limit that it has to be better than, but I don't recall what it is. You also need an EICR for the electrical install, PA testing for all appliances, smoke heat and CO alarms, mains powered and interlinked. There is talk of introducing a legionairs test on the water system. Oh and you have to register as a landlord.
 

[Ferdinand]

Quote

51 minutes ago, Crofter said:

 

Is it possible to fit some sort of low level cut off for an oil tank, so that it shuts off below a certain level but does not subsequently

Sonic sender transmits wirelessly to a receiver in the house. 

 

2 hours ago, ProDave said:

 

An oil boiler is fine but needs an annual service. And lets hope your tenant fills the oil tank before it runs out. Mine never did. He always waited until the boiler stopped working. Got the bone dry tank filled. Then called me to come and bleed the air out of the oil line to get it running again. Every year, without fail.

That's why I said add a penalty clause so it costs them not you . 

 

That is quite a tricky area where you have landlord obligations on one side and (in England at least) a tenant common law duty to behave in a "tenant-like" manner on the other.

 

Again, an English legal perspective - Scotland may be different since they have redefined all their regulations and duties in the last decade.

 

Providing the heating appliance will be down to the LL and it would depend on whether the annual boiler refill comes down to the T doing the little jobs.

 

Is an annual refueling of an oil boiler part of the basic maintenance or part of the use? A T would not be expected to organise the repair of a gas leak, but should they be expected to watch for oil to run out?

 

My judgement would be that the LL should probably have an annual inspection/service and it could be argued that refueling is or is not part of that. *That* could be a matter for a clause in the contract, but liability would be limited as per contract law.

 

See, for example, page 75 of this short 123 page "Unfair Terms in Rental Contracts" document from the OFT:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/284440/oft356.pdf

 

Or the classic Lord Denning ruling on Tenant Responsiilities in Warren v Keen 1954, discussed here:

http://www.letlink.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=300%3Arepairs-the-responsibilities-of-the-landlord-and-tenant&catid=19%3Adisrepair&Itemid=53

 

I expect that there is something in eg the Scottish Rental Standard, and that will be the place to check.

 

Suggest a conversation with the Scottish Association of Landlords on 0131 564 0100 for a start. They should be willing to have a short chat without charge, or point the new LL to good advice.

 

Ferdinand

Edited October 4, 2016 by Ferdinand

[Stones]

10 hours ago, Crofter said:

The DHW could stay as-is I suppose, but install an E7 meter.

What sort of ballpark figure would an ATAHP be? The prices don't seem to be readily available online unlike e.g. oil boilers.

 

It's a 2 bedroom house by the way so not enormous. I don't know the exact size but it must be in the region of 80m2.

 

I was quoted £900 (+ VAT) for a Panasonic A2A fully installed.

 

I loathe storage heaters (currently renting a house with them) with a passion, and think them far from user / tenant friendly, although Dave has a valid point about simplicity.  It is for those reasons I would discount oil, too much to go wrong.  Likewise, I wouldn't touch an A2W heat pump in a rental, you can just picture your tenant trying to constantly produce hot water.  A2A certainly seems to have a lot of traction up here as a simple and cost effective retrofit (and for a lot of small new builds).  

[Crofter]

Is A2A a ducted warm air system, then? Tempting price, for sure, but for a house that already has rads and pipework installed, it would be a much more disruptive installation tuning the ducts around the place.

 

Another question comes to mind- would a building warrant be needed to install a new heating system? I have come across reference to regulations about the storage of oil so wondering if this is enforced via a BW?

[ProDave]

Not sure about a building warrant, but you do know in Scotland, planning permission is needed for an air source heat pump, unless it is something like 100 feet from all your boundaries (I can't imagine any council houses meeting that)  A ground source heat pump does not need PP.

 

Thankfully I realised this just in time to include it on my plans.

 

I am guessing the cheap A2A unit mentioned is a single outlet unit, think air conditioner in reverse, so would only heat one room.
 

[Crofter]

Ah and I presume you would need PP for the oil tank?

[ProDave]

I

17 minutes ago, Crofter said:

Ah and I presume you would need PP for the oil tank?

I don't think so.

 

The "issue" with an ASHP up here is they are perceived by the planners as noisy, so they want to know where they are in relation to neighbours and they wanted the specifications in particular it's noise rating. That's why if you have  a massive garden and it's a loooooong way from the neighbours you can ionstall one under permitted development.

 

An oil tank is not noisy so won't be a planning issue, but my be a BR issue?  I know with this house building control had to approve the location of the oil tank, and in our case allowed it to go right next to the end wall of the house, which is apparently unusual as most pople have to keep them a few metres away frm the house. 
 

[Stones]

On 10/9/2016 at 18:40, ProDave said:

Not sure about a building warrant, but you do know in Scotland, planning permission is needed for an air source heat pump, unless it is something like 100 feet from all your boundaries (I can't imagine any council houses meeting that)  A ground source heat pump does not need PP.

 

Thankfully I realised this just in time to include it on my plans.

 

I am guessing the cheap A2A unit mentioned is a single outlet unit, think air conditioner in reverse, so would only heat one room.
 

 

The rules on this have changed (amendment to general permitted development rights) - 

 

http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2016/06/2685/8

 

 

[Crofter]

1 hour ago, Stones said:

 

The rules on this have changed (amendment to general permitted development rights) - 

 

http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2016/06/2685/8

 

 

Thanks. The releveant part appears to be:

6.14
Permitted development rights allow the installation, alteration or replacement of a Ground Source Heat pump or Water Source Heat pump within the curtilage of a dwellinghouse or a building containing a flat.

6.15
There are no restrictions on those permitted development rights.

 

[Stones]

There are still conditions as per 6.19

As I understand it, the biggest 'hurdle' is satisfying the noise requirements which I think in theory means the installer doing a test to confirm the noise emitted doesn't exceed whatever the limit is.