FM2015

Is that low smoke cabling so as to avoid conduits? Come across a few jobs where this was the case only to fall foul of protection measures. Unless you put them deep enough, you'll still need protection. Cost of cable over normal will be in the same ball park as normal plus conduit. You can form a channel that is almost key hole shaped so the conduit 'clips' in.

Best not give too many trade secrets away 😬 but follow on trades, as the vast majority haven't worked with ICF, shouldn't get me into too much bother.

And I understand you're point of view, I really do. And you're right, if you are doing it daily, you should have every tool under the sun to maximise efficiency. As it's now common knowledge that I work for a professional outfit, I'll also say that we work with designers and manufacturers to create ever better tools and systems to increase our efficiency. So yes, we think about it a lot. 9pm Friday night and I'm talking tools 🤣🤷🏼‍♂️ Somewhere in the middle is where we meet. So, for £300(max), buy a 240v hot knife kit or hire one from the distributor and make full use of one of the best practicability benefits of a lot of EPS based ICFs. Save on batten, screws and time. Whichever way you do it, one way will take longer than the other. It simply has to. 30 % more screw time for a start. The issue, and I think to some extent what your opinion is based on, is that this level of information is not always given or available to the self builder other than through forums like this. Therefore, if anyone would like a video of one of our team setting up and using a hot knife to prep for electrics to show a)how it's done b)how little waste there is c) how long it takes to clean up and d) the order of tasks, drop me a message. I.e. let's share some best practices from people doing it regularly and those who have solved problems rather than the sales bumpf. And that's what I'm on this forum for. And if that comes across as patronising or anything other than just trying to help, I apologise.

Basically if you make a mess cutting EPS, you are doing it wrong or just ill equipped, especially chasing out. Almost the cleanest job on site when undertaken properly. And takes seconds to do a floor to ceiling chase and socket box. Sparky then has room for a 47mm deep box which saves him time. Pb fixed to directly to in built webs, flat to surface with collated screw gun, only foam at single edge not fixable. Unless you use floppy pb, I assure you it doesn't go anywhere. I could prep, conduit and pb a room almost before you've finished your batten. No mess.

EPS and XPS used in ICF is denser than that used in EWI. That's 4 abbreviations in one sentence. Which is three too many!

A lot of sleep lost over imperial systems and metric plasterboard. If there isn't a void behind it, where can that unfixed tail go? A line of pu foam should suffice. Conduit all services into the insulation and board over. From experience, securing plasterboard in this way is far superior to having a void behind it. It is more susceptible to damage. If fixed flat to a surface which behaves in a very solid manner once boarded, it can't go anywhere. And you maintain a solid feel rather than a hollow feel. Save money on currently expensive materials ( batten is no longer 30p/m) and labour. It also means you can eliminate most of your waste by using the offcuts in cubby holes where you can plaster over thick to hide multiple jigsaw joints. Yes, this generally only applies to EPS/XPS systems.

Both Nudura and Thermohouse should be fairly airtight as standard. Check best practice for each product on sealing openings, required vents etc Internal Plasterboard straight over. Plywood beneath plasterboard mentioned already for fix to. Really heavy items could be fixed to timber secured directly back to concrete in chases. It's not just the weight, is it static or dynamic? We have a climbing wall fixed through ICF....not you average kitchen cupboard full of baked beans. External Most EPS based blocks are classified impervious until finished. Most thin coats are locally repairable but tough as the proverbial. Check with warranty issuer and product manufacturers for appropriate brands. Not all EPS/XPS are the same density and this can impact the quality of bond. Sadly this last point seems to change depending on area, warranty, wind direction. Getting this choice right though could eliminate the need to cement board everywhere. And I would suspect repair could be more involved.

Not all woodcrete or EPS or XPS blocks are born equal. As someone has previously stated, the devil is in the detail. @JohnMou Surely the presence of rebar is a structural discussion almost entirely unrelated to the block type or manufacturer?

Only trying to help and advise. Mostly to protect our industry and the people working with the products available. Apologies if this thread sailed too close to the wind.

Original post hidden at poster's request I have been advised, and rightly so, that some of my comments could be construed as deliberately denigrating a single product or manufacturer. I stress here that all products can be used to successfully achieve the desired goals but if self building, everyone should seek full guidance at every stage being aware of all risks. Risks that vary with every product. I have tried to edit my post but been unable to do so. ICF is a trade in itself and anyone undertaking an ICF build for the first time should treat it with the respect it deserves. On reflection, the main reason ICF and solid wall construction is niche is actually down to risk appreciation in the finance and insurance world, compounded by a lack of experienced professionals. Both of which all manufacturers are trying to address. The oil change analogy stands. With respect to Durisol, I have personally a greater number of poor customer experiences than any other product HOWEVER this may or may not be representative and it is unfair and wrong for me to say otherwise. The same can be said for any other ICF system.

I'd do some more research.

I was being as facetious. We get called every week. I get a sore neck shaking my head 🤣

Take a trip to any of the half dozen or so Nudura builds in St Agnes. Pretty sure at least on is in progress

You using v clips on that? Often find that concrete will hit the edge of the beam and splash outwards. The extra pressure increasing the chance of a first course blow out.

Get him to design a slab and cut out loads of stages? ICF rising walls? Trench fill is just a waste of time and materials. So are starter bars. Can recall seeing starter bars on timber frame or masonry builds. Obviously ICF building like to slip off their footings 🧐

Is your roof and guttering on?

An EPS ICF should be below £170/m2, based on external dims and for the sake of it, include all openings in the area calc. This would be supplied and fit, Inc concrete, rebar, pump, labour, props etc. Render on the outside may reach £50/m2 of wall. Plasterboard and plastering to finish internals, £40/m2. Of wall. Your 17x8 building is going to be in the region of 125m2 of wall so all in, less than £35k. Groundworks excluded. Shell is then £277/M2 of footprint. Or less than 15% of your 1800min budget. ICF over sips: one main advantage is that it doesn't support mould like timber does.

If it's above ground, it really shouldn't get tested. Prolonged hydrostatic pressure would be required. The range of belt and braces options is huge.

I would also look at the actual real world cost of the OneSeries versus a more traditional shuttered system. Ultimately if you throw enough concrete at it, the EPS/insulation becomes less relevant to the overall performance. The OneSeries is not a particularly first time user friendly product and complicated designs make it even less worthwhile in your scenario.

The word is that the Nudura xr range is designed for a 70 Deg external temp swung between coldest and warmest! Bit over specced for the UK's temperate climate. More cost effective options are offered by Nudura.

The paradox is always the 200mm of pokered 10mm c35 is waterproof! Just an excuse to relieve people of money!

Sika and others found out that for some icfs, the self builder is getting a warranty by the back door and then, when anything goes wrong, the warranty provider goes looking for someone to blame. For example, one product essentially lets you be a qualified installer after two pours. That's gf and FF. Get your product sign off, sign your own warranty, still not knowing top from bottom. And then expect the warranty provider to play ball. It's all good until it goes wrong. Similar to the responsibilities under the h&s for all those labour only self build jobs. Great until something goes wrong. A peruse of the HSE website and legal gazetteers shows this to be the case. Sika just got fed up with it and required extra back up. Fair enough if you're going to get sued all the time. Building control, engineer and the local environment will determine footing depth and rising wall height. @Tosh you get your cube samples assessed? Pretty sure that's the only way to confirm specification. Another reason why sika et al have restricted warranties.

You miss my point. In some countries they have much colder weather than here and it doesn't stop them pouring. Not sure what North American opinion is on woodcrete.

Bear in mind where most ICF gets used and see what conditions they pump and fill ICF in. If they waited for it to be -6, they'd waste two thirds of a year!! And in the summer it can be +30

Fair enough. I think the important thing here is that a comparison on headline cost is irrelevant. And comparison of cost to get to the same stage for a given performance metric is far superior. We could still argue over what you include in your 12k figure when other systems incorporate elements which you haven't listed. And including all scaffold costs in the roof cost doesn't reflect the requirements of the system being installed. Apples and apples