ToughButterCup

A very valuable piece of paper. In relation to @vivienz's question, AFTER you have followed @Ferdinand's advice, look very carefully at the conditions attached to your planning permission, and read the ecology survey that informed that PP. It would also be a good idea to check what other very local PPs have required (if there are any within a mile or so) in relation to echolocating mammals. Read the ecology reports very thoroughly and then look at the responses of the the LPAs expert feedback (ecologist who works for the LPA). Read every single one of them. Why? In the ecology sector, expert opinion varies and a difference in opinion can make many thousands of pounds difference. I am still suffering the trauma, and will tell anyone who listens - on the basis of direct evidence - exactly what I think of the professional opinions of Ecologists. Luckily for you I've got a door to strip, paint and otherwise titivate. If you want chapter and verse, PM me when I have calmed down later today. Ian

The Moderation team has decided to lock this thread, principally because it has run its course: no new argument was being advanced. Thanks everyone for your interest and - if you did - your contribution.

@B52s, thanks for your contribution. As with many issues that involve a degree of interpretation at law, there will be some margin for interpretation. The key thing for all of us to understand is that members must always make their own mind up on the basis of a variety of sources of evidence. BH is not the only place to get advice. So, thanks for your contribution in that process. The HSE has a good discussion board, and many threads involve Domestic Client queries. This discussion board does not pretend to offer definitive legal advice.

The thread is long, detailed and closely argued. Most people do not read Internet-based information for detail. They scan information grab, hop, flick through the text; call it what you will. That's why a summary of such a thread is one useful way of re-presenting detail - as well as an encouragement to go to the source. I ought to try and find time to do some sort of graphic to go with the summary. Thanks J for your persistence and patience. Ian

We did disturb ours and so had to replace them. As soon as we relaid the drain, it ran merrily for a couple of days - whereas before there was a hardly discernible trickle. So, if you do break through the drain, it's not all bad news.

I look on our glacial till / made ground mix with new-found affection. All it needs is a clay spade and a Dinky Toy digger

"We dug down two and a half meters." She thought that she would meet her family in Australia if they'd needed to dig any more. LMAO in an unkind way Just goes to show, it's the quality of the preparation that counts

People show themselves for what they are when things go wrong.

Here's a list of HSE website discussions about Domestic Clients. I would have filtered it more, but just got to pop out for a bit. I'll get back to it as soon as I can. Ian

Tricky, horribly tricky. Strikes me that plenty of others must have solved this issue: we didn't invent it. Let's get our heads down and worry this one to the bitter end.

@ everyone...... might it be an idea to use the HSE Construction Discussion website to discuss the same issue? I ask not to imply criticism, more to inform and to widen our discussions . I should add that this strategy is common practice in online discussions in the academic sector. It helps reduce that horrible thing 'shared ignorance' How about I ask (I am already registered) something like: As a Domestic Client, do I have the responsibility in law to appoint a Principal Designer? If there's sufficient agreement, I'll separate this bit out and put it into another thread.

@Triassic and @divorcingjack, finally we come, hopefully, to answering the question @divorcingjack asked in the first place. And I think the answer lies in determining your status as far as CDM 2105 is concerned. I say that because have read and re-read this thread so many times I dreamt about it last night. If you are a Domestic Client, I think it would be hard for anyone to show that you are a competent person to 'appoint' (not sure if that term is right) anyone as PD. Nowhere is a Domestic Client directed to appoint a PD. I think everyone is suffering from a serious - if unintended - case of poorly drafted guidance at a series of levels.

This post is summary of the Principal Designer thread. The purpose of this summary is to assist members and guests decide for themselves how CDM2015 impacts their build project. The summary is offered as is and should not be interpreted as authoritative advice. As is normal in asynchronous online discussion, the thread sometimes changes its focus a little. Where those changes occur, the content has not been summarised. Discussion of this issue is particularly relevant to us because we are a self-build forum, whose members are assumed not to be professional builders, or -in relation to building- have any technical understanding or capability beyond simple DIY . To be clear, the following assumptions are made; · A client is a Domestic Client. The distinction is central to all that follows · The Domestic Client can choose to apply for VAT relief in due course, whereas a Client cannot · The Domestic Client is not engaged, or about to be engaged, in a business related to the build (because they will then be a Client, not a Domestic Client) The thread started with a question about the role of Principal Designer. The examination of that question inevitably lead to discussion about how the role related to other key aspects of the legislation. There was some reference to the history of Health and Safety legislation, but it was pointed out that over time, the general emphasis had not changed. If you qualify for Domestic Client status, then a contractor working for you carries the main responsibility for Health and Safety. It was in the detailed examination of the term ‘responsibility’ that a good deal of discussion arose. Several members agreed that the legislation was poorly drafted for our sector of the market. And in the context of a self-build forum, where many of us will be doing things for the build on our own (DIY) as well as employing contractors, it is easy to see a rich source of confusion. For example, self-builders might be tempted to become involved in the build in a way which implies technical competence and so enhanced H+S responsibility. A strong warning was given to self-builders to avoid becoming involved in technical aspects of the build to the extent that they might be considered ‘ a responsible person’. And that includes the self-builder being trained in a relevant build subject to the extent that he or she might be assumed by the courts to have more responsibility than a Domestic Client would be expected to have. Perhaps the simplest articulation of how CDM responsibilities can be operationalised was in this post (@jamiehamy) ‘… We have only used contractors for the steel frame, lifting in floor beams, ground works/drainage and electrics - and each time I've made it clear that the contractor is responsible for operating safely and I do not dictate how they complete the activities. I don't supervise on site and most certainly do not manage their work or how they work - they have a deliverable and it is their responsibility to complete that. Where required, I offer safety equipment, ask what they need me to provide to work safely and healthily, I find out if they are dependent on me for anything and let them get on with it. Maybe I should do more in writing but I choose reputable contractors and all work is fully invoiced…’ In terms of prosecution for H+S breaches, providing the Domestic Client has fulfilled their duties (not covered in detail in this summary) prosecution is highly unlikely. Domestic Clients should make sure the site is safe and secure, tidy and clear of obvious hazards. There was some discussion based on the meaning of a series of CDM-specific terms; Project Manager, PD, PC, Client, Domestic Client, Business or Business Activity, Contractor, design, designer as well as others. Please refer to the full discussion for a more detailed discussion. But it was convincingly argued (with supporting evidence, and some unevidenced dissention) that a Domestic Client cannot be either a Principal Contractor or Principal Designer. Additionally, there was some discussion of official legal documents related to CDM2015. In summary: be sure to understand the meaning of the term Domestic Client, and to maintain that status throughout the build. Any competent person with whom you have a contract to complete work on your site should be capable of working safely. Offer support to fulfill H+S requirements, but never offer advice or direct work or manage the process. If, after reading this summary you feel you need to, take care to seek advice from more than one reliable, authoritative source. Paying for advice does not guarantee its accuracy or authority. Source url forum.buildhub.org.uk/ipb/topic/2376-principal-designer-role/ Bibliography. HSE (2015), Managing health and safety in construction. Construction (Design and Management) Regulations 2015, HSE Books downloaded 04/05/2017 http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/l153.pdf See especially Appendix 6. HSE (2015), How CDM 2015 applies to Domestic Clients Appendix 6, Figure 1, in Managing health and safety in construction. Construction (Design and Management) Regulations 2015. Download the flow chart (from our server) here HandSforDomesticClients.pdf HSE Construction Discussion Forum (accessed 04/05/2017)

Thanks all. The 30' fibre tape measure arrived yesterday. So comforting, so easy, so normal. Took it apart, painted half of it red so that thieving children (also self-builders) can't nick it, and then put it back together again. It's on the mantelpiece looking lovely, restful, dependable, boring. What's not to like?

Got it in one.

OK, I've had enough. How on earth does anyone aim their laser measure if the distance to be measured exceeds - say- two meters or so? I attach the measure to a diddy (a few centimeters) camera tripod, the measure has an in-built spirit level. The stated range is 70 feet, and I was trying to check something 13 feet away. The laser is about a strong as a candle on the top of Mount Everest: the cat had great fun chasing the spot. That was the only way I had an inkling where the spot pointed. Have I bought a Frolicat laser toy, not a measure? (Image url, permsion requested)

Jason, knock the house down and start again. OR.... a small -tiny even- bead of lead which encourages the water downwind, downhill, before it gets to the edge of the roof (and thus invisible form the location from which the photo was taken.)

OK, I take the hint. I'll submit my summary to the often disconcertingly incisive scrutiny of SWMBO, make amendments and post it for comment.

My motive for drawing attention is entirely selfish. Every time I think I've finished the thread summary, a new cockerel crows, the new one wakes the others, and us hens are left in the lurch again.

Right then. Is this just about done wrt H+S or is there more....?

And the acid test of deep-learning is knowing why, and being able to articulate, why you don't accept the arguments put by others. That's why this thread is, frankly, riveting.

Well @Steptoe, I see the opposite. I see structured, polite, sometimes uncomfortable, but almost always useful discussion. I see engagement. I see help for bewildered self builders. To get this quality of debate elsewhere I'd have to pay a good deal of money.

Click. At last, at very long last. Thank God for a drop of rain, then..... Ian

To the extent that CDM2015 affects self builders, I hope to remedy that by providing a referenced precis of the conclusions. In doing so, there is little point in following every twist of the debate set out here. To do this thread justice I have had to read and re-read it (all of it) at least half a dozen times. And I expect to do so a few more times in the near future. That's the problem with asynchronous communication: and also the rationale for providing carefully drafted summaries. They help readers maintain the original focus.

@MikeSharp01, I hadn't given VAT a thought. In my view it's a straight rebuild (of the Piggery), and so not reclaimable. Hadn't give a moment's thought to the contents, though. I have a condensate drain in the Piggery already, and sorting it out in the house won't be an issue. I need to get a design for the underground ducting version, and a couple of different internal designs knocked up too.