Roger440

So what has the debate over the last few pages been about? Why all the chat about WC and having to re-visit, tweak etc. Thats been discussed on here numerous times before.

Having a heat pump is a disadvantage. Primarily because of cost, secondly, finding someone who can do it properly, and, to a much lesser degree, reliance on the grid being available, which for most is a non issue, but a small issue for me. Given, as per my ramblings elsewhere, i end up with a bigger generator, that problem goes away. The eco4 scheme, assuming i qualified, would fund the HP, solar and insulationl at no cost to me at all. Im sure you can appreciate, that fundamentally changes things. If that option does not come to fruition, then yes, i revert to my previous position of sticking with oil. As, financially its the only option that makes any sense at all. Seems fairly simple to me. Im not sure ive ever deviated from that.

Id suggest the sceanrio you outline in your last post is where we end up. Because, sooner or later, given that the "third parties" seem incapable of making stuff work properly, one of the Boiler and or HP manufacturers offer a complete system that does everything from a control perspective. To be honest, i find it perverse that nobody does (to the best of my knowledge). A car manufacturer doesnt build a car, and then leave the steering wheel and pedals out for a third party to fit. And with good reason. If they did, some people would screw it up and say the car was crap. Which just damages the brand, or even the concept of a car. So just like heat pumps. Where everyone says they are crap, but, the pump itself is just fine. Its the people fitting and, more relevant here, the control systems are not up to it from a consumer aspect.

Sadly, as you often do, you like to acscribe a position to me which i dont take. I was looking at a heat pump under the eco4 scheme as part of a whole house upgrade, whilst being very cautions of the fact its mostly done badly by grant harvesters. But i think ive found a "good one". Sadly for me, but of huge benefit to the taxpayer, it looks like the scheme will be canned by Rachael. So more than happy to have a heat pump, done properly. Why wouldnt i? But, if i have to pay for it all from my own pockets, its the economics of the madhouse. Whilst im not in poverty, im also not a position to fritter away 5 figure sums on a whim. Ive got a heating system which is fine, only 6 years old, and is as cheap to run as anything else. Only a heatpump supported by solar (and maybe batteries) could be cheaper to run. But the capital cost simply rules it out. If you ignore capital cost, sure, ill have one tommorow, which is of course where i started this post. So, im not against a heat pump, just not prepared to spend big, to replace a system that does the job perfectly. With a bit of TLC i can probably get another 10-15 years out of it at almost no cost beyond oil. The only slight negative being i cannot fit WC to it. But that doesnt change the financial calculation to any extent.

The perfect world. Lovely. Meanwhile back out in the real world you have the only only body involved essentially mandating over sizing, installers with little technical understanding, heat loss calculations that are entirely theorectical based on "guesses" of the performance of the various elememts of the house, and almost no chance of anyone "coming back" afterwards. The latter is completely unrealistic. This is only going to work when WC sorts itself out. That surely cannot be beyond the wit of man to achieve We can, as you observe, do it manually, so why cant we do it with a bit of software? It never ceases to amaze me how backwards the industry is. Building generally.

Exactly. If its hard to find an installer that understands it, it merely proves that getting the general public to undertand is a lost cause. Imagine how much better things would be if ALL installers actually understood it and set it up properly.

I understand it fully thanks, You statement makes no sense though, you say there no need to understand it, then go onto explain it. I say again, theres no possibility of the average person understanding what you wrote, even if you could persude them to be interested. Which you wont.

The frightening close to being sensible!

You keep going on about its "better" in your never ending crusade. You are wasting you time. My house runs on oil (probably permanently if the eco4 grant goes the way of the dodo) i run it at 20c during the day, 16 at night, and its "on" 24/7, Ive screwed the flow temps down as far as i can. The house is warm and comfortable. My previous house, exactly the same. Whatever this "better" is, frankly i have no need or desire for it to be "better" because it perfectly OK as it is. I certainly dont feel an overwhelming urge from a comfort perpective, to spend a five figure sum and rip my house to pieces to make it "better". Its just not a argument that has any relevance to real life. You make lots of valid points, this isnt one of them. I accept ive probably done more than 99% of people with what i have done, and Prodaves post earlier highlights how bad a lot of systems are. But they dont need to rip it all out and spend £15k (they likely dont have) to make it better.

Gosh, i go away for 2 days and we have another thread, much the same as the previous ones. I think its good for you to occasionally come back to planet earth though. There is absolutely no possibility at all, ever, of getting the average man on the clapham ominibus to understand WC. We live in an era where people think tuning up the thermostat on the heating or an oven to max will heat it up "quicker" You idea is fantasy. And nor should it be necessary. The industry needs to (though i accept it wont) up its game and make stuff that "just works". The automotive industry, until recently anyway, were masters at taking what is, a far more complex product and delivery a usuable one to the consumer. There was a time that owning a car meant you did really need to know the basics of how it works. They took that problem and engineered it out. Succesfully. The should be no need to "understand" WC and if there is, its doomed to fail.

We have had this convo before. Theres lots of things that can be done. But they wont be.

Sadly its not press hype, its the lived reality for most who have one. Can it be done properly and succesfully, Sure. Is it? Rarely. I know several people with one. All are spending significantly more on heating than they were. I dont actually know anyone with a succesful installation. The good thing about binning the grant is installers can stop taking the mick. Otherwise they will have no work. Not before time.

Mandating heat pump fitment is, as you say, easy. Mandating an actual performance level, pointless. Everyone will just lie as it is essentially not provable (other than by calculation) at the time of build. Electricity prices are not coming down. Thats a certainty.

My first house was on a combined system, as was the whole estate. When i built a garage, i was point blank, not permitted to connect it to the existing drains. That was 15 years ago. I highly doubt its got easier. And it shouldnt be easier.

Whilst on a personal level, i wont be able to participate, the fact that i could get £45k of work done for free was never sustainable, and not a sensible way to spend taxpayer cash, given theres something of a shortage. Still, some people got rich, quickly.