PP obtained - but can we achieve more?

[oldkettle]

So, now that we finally have PP, I want to make up my mind WRT may be applying again to fill in the space behind the garage that will otherwise be mostly unused (well, we can store the bins there but they are nicely positioned on the other side, next to the kitchen and the side gate, where the drains are shown). I've marked the space in question in purple. The internal size would be approx. 2.5m by 5.5m, I guess we could also eat into the existing garage a bit although not sure it's particularly helpful at this stage. That would give me a space for the gym and as the garage needs a new roof anyway both could be covered with a single slope from the house outwards (see below). I'd lift the eaves a bit as well but can I do it without planning? If so, by how much?

I do admit I keep thinking that in 20+years the garage+gym could be turned into a granny annex...

 

North is at the top here.

 

 

 

The other change I am contemplating is at the front.

 

The existing bungalow has a bay window which I don't like at all and to try and please the planner and at the same time get rid of the bay we cut it off completely for the now approved plans.

 

Old:                                                                                                                                New:

  

 

The current front view image is attached.

 

If occurred to me that as there is work required to build a couple of meters of foundations at the front anyway, it may be not much more expensive to increase the footprint at the front rather than reduce it:

 

I think it may just give us enough extra room to move the stairs to the right, South side (would be U-stairs instead of the straight we plan now). I still need to model it in Sketchup to verify. If it works, the hall will be much more spacious and get significantly more light (we'd add a window above the landing).

 

The question is: is it worth the hassle? I could probably get somebody to amend the drawings relatively cheaply over Skype or may be even do it myself, but 

1) Does it look like it can provide value for money?

2) Is there no easier way to build the gym without going to planners again right now? I do appreciate we have enough garden space for a separate (sips type?) building, but if there is a space that can be within insulated envelope it seems a waste to build somewhere else as well?

 

As usual, any thought are greatly appreciated.

[Ferdinand]

Glutton for punishment, or inspired minor adjustment? Hmm.

 

I can see the benefit, especially on the entrance route, and perhaps someone can give you a ballpark number for the cost of those foundations.

 

Rather than a full sketchup, try just adding the new outline bits onto a printout or trace a plan onto a new sheet over with a pencil or coloured felt tip. 

 

An option for the hall-light would be glass panels beside the front door.

 

Would you try and pull he garage inside the insulated envelop?

 

You could do the hall and door and bay under PP, then leave the garage/gym for PD?

 

Remember you only have 3 years to start .

F

Edited March 3, 2019 by Ferdinand

[oldkettle]

Thank you, @Ferdinand, as ever

 

Ideally I would pull the garage within insulated envelope, but I suspect it will require demolition as it is unlikely to have a deep foundation and the wall is single skin. On the other hand, demolition would give us a useful access root for the early stages of the build. I need to investigate what kind of foundation can be used for the garage as I would really want to avoid having to deal with party wall notices. Saying that, we'd need to think about it for the gym anyway. The neighbours are on the higher ground and are probably less than three meters away from the boundary. I suspect that I can assume that the bottom of their foundations is about level with our ground level, so we probably should be OK. 

 

The front door is West side of the house and we already have a window above it, but it won't get that much light as the sun will be too low behind the trees for most of the year. 

 

About PD root, I thought about it, my concern is the gym would be a side extension, but not only along the original building (as we are extending at the back by 3 meters on the shorter side), my understanding is that is not PD?

I was also thinking could I put in the foundation and the slab for it but leave the walls for another PP later, but again the issue here is I kind of want the gym ASAP to stop paying for it to someone else while I still hope to use it for another 10 years to recoup the expenses. 

[Mr Punter]

Why not demolish and rebuild?

[oldkettle]

36 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

Why not demolish and rebuild?

 

We may yet to go down this route (I assume you mean the whole house), but the main issue is the mortgage. We are in the second year of a very cheap 5-year fix. Paying the exit fee and switching to a self-build mortgage will cost (my estimates) close to the amount we may save on VAT.

i.e. +5% difference in interest/year * 300K mortgage (I guess - that's to cover the outstanding amount and hoping that we have enough savings to complete which is not at all guaranteed) *2 years is 30K already. I am looking into ways to cut the ERC but it's going to be a few K as well. + living in a caravan for 2 years rather than moving back into a hopefully watertight shell after a few months as all services are already connected.

I am going to contact a project manager to discuss this further, but I feel it is unrealistic to expect to complete (i.e. get a completion certificate and switch back to a residential mortgage) within say a year unless we pay much more than we have, say, 2K+/m2. 

Edited March 3, 2019 by oldkettle

[Ferdinand]

25 minutes ago, oldkettle said:

 

We may yet to go down this route (I assume you mean the whole house), but the main issue is the mortgage. We are in the second year of a very cheap 5-year fix. Paying the exit fee and switching to a self-build mortgage will cost (my estimates) close to the amount we may save on VAT.

i.e. +5% difference in interest/year * 300K mortgage (I guess - that's to cover the outstanding amount and hoping that we have enough savings to complete which is not at all guaranteed) *2 years is 30K already. I am looking into ways to cut the ERC but it's going to be a few K as well. + living in a caravan for 2 years rather than moving back into a hopefully watertight shell after a few months as all services are already connected.

I am going to contact a project manager to discuss this further, but I feel it is unrealistic to expect to complete (i.e. get a completion certificate and switch back to a residential mortgage) within say a year unless we pay way much more than we have, say, 2K+/m2. 

 

That will just give you time for your next Planning Application and Appeal for the gym ?.

[oldkettle]

3 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

 

That will just give you time for your next Planning Application and Appeal for the gym ?.

 

:-) It did cross my mind that "three years to start" would mean we could wait until the last year of the fix and bring the ERC down to almost nothing with overpayments - we are allowed 20%/year.

 

I want to build something while kids still need it. In 10 years time they won't.

 

By the way, as a part of the build we will need to do some demolition. Would it count as the commencement if we gave notice (for CIL exemption purposes) and say removed the chimney stack?

[Ferdinand]

1 minute ago, oldkettle said:

By the way, as a part of the build we will need to do some demolition. Would it count as the commencement if we gave notice (for CIL exemption purposes) and say removed the chimney stack?

 

Ask your Council that one.

[Mr Punter]

Have you had anyone quote to do this work and let you know how long it will take? My feeling is that it will be slow and expensive. Get the figures pinned down as early as possible and perhaps compare this to moving to a larger house. I am a developer and it is very rare that a bungalow to house conversion would work financially, and I am able to reclaim the VAT in any case.

[oldkettle]

5 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

Have you had anyone quote to do this work and let you know how long it will take? My feeling is that it will be slow and expensive. Get the figures pinned down as early as possible and perhaps compare this to moving to a larger house. I am a developer and it is very rare that a bungalow to house conversion would work financially, and I am able to reclaim the VAT in any case.

 

Thanks, you are right and it's unlikely to be viable commercially. BUT

 

It's just impossible to buy a house that would be the right size, good quality construction and a reasonable location within our budget. I know because I have not stopped my old Rightmove alert and keep checking what's on the market. So I expect to pay for the pleasure to live in a house that I actually like in a place that works quite well for us. It's not a business - it's personal :-)

 

I had a quote from MBC for a full build (I wish I could take it) and a couple of quotes from other vendors for extensions. No timeframe for extension was provided. As I said, I am planning to talk to a professional project manager to discuss our options.

When you say "slow and expensive", what are your expectations? I am not hoping to do the whole thing for a 100K and in a month. I fully expect to live in a partially completed house for an extended time.

[bassanclan]

Demolishing the chimney would not count as commencement unless you are in a conservation area.

You can demolish a chimney (or even a house) without permission.

To fully secure your planning permission in perpetuity you would need to commence works actually related the permission. E.g lay foundations etc

Edited March 4, 2019 by bassanclan

[Mr Punter]

16 hours ago, oldkettle said:

When you say "slow and expensive", what are your expectations? I am not hoping to do the whole thing for a 100K and in a month. I fully expect to live in a partially completed house for an extended time.

 

Assuming all new plumbing, heating, ventilation, electrics, windows, doors, joinery, kitchens, bathrooms, flooring wall and ceiling finishes I would budget £1,200-£1,800 per sqm, so £240-£360k plus the garage. Allow 18 months and for it to be unoccupied.

[oldkettle]

6 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

 

Assuming all new plumbing, heating, ventilation, electrics, windows, doors, joinery, kitchens, bathrooms, flooring wall and ceiling finishes I would budget £1,200-£1,800 per sqm, so £240-£360k plus the garage. Allow 18 months and for it to be unoccupied.

 

Thank you. 

Yes, it is in the region of 200m2 and I guess VAT needs to be added to your numbers. My only hope was that since most of the ground floor walls stay up and so do the existing bathroom and WC we could take off the roof, make good and add the first floor in a usual for TF short time (i.e. weeks). Than move back into a single room and start work on the first fix. When there is a working bathroom upstairs we could then complete the changes to the old bathroom.

 

Separately, I will try to find out whether any part of the ground floor extension can be done first thing, before the roof is off - that would help immensely. 

 

It's clear I am missing something - what is it? 

[Mr Punter]

The next step is probably to work up the existing plans and spec to the stage where you can send out a tender package and get some quotes from local builders. If you then find that you have too much cash left over, you can consider doing the additional works.

 

Because you are doing so much to the property I think you will need to vacate as it would be unsafe and impractical to do otherwise but again your builders will let you know.

[oldkettle]

45 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

The next step is probably to work up the existing plans and spec to the stage where you can send out a tender package and get some quotes from local builders. If you then find that you have too much cash left over, you can consider doing the additional works.

 

Because you are doing so much to the property I think you will need to vacate as it would be unsafe and impractical to do otherwise but again your builders will let you know.

Local builders... this is highly unlikely. I am not going for passive house but I do want to get as close as we can, I don't believe local builders will be able to deliver it. Exactly the reason why I am looking for TF provider to undertake the bulk of work up to the water tight stage. And their quotes for the first floor only are not unreasonable. 

[Mr Punter]

I doubt the timber frame supplier will be interested in much more than supply and fit timber frame which is probably no more than 20% of the project cost.

[oldkettle]

1 hour ago, Mr Punter said:

I doubt the timber frame supplier will be interested in much more than supply and fit timber frame which is probably no more than 20% of the project cost.

 

20%??? That's scary. Is it not a bit low? 

On the other hand the lowest quote I had for a basic 140mm wall was indeed below 50K IIRC. 

 

Regardless, does the installed TF not give us the shell suitable for a limited habitation? Again, all services are already in place? 

 

[Mr Punter]

Having services on site will save about £10K. I assumed you would have to strip out everything above the top of your ground floor walls. I also assume replacement or thermal upgrade to ground floor. You will not be able to occupy until works are almost complete.

 

If this was a loft conversion and extension it would be possible to stay while works were carried out as much of it can be isolated until the new stair opening is made or the new opening from the existing house.

[oldkettle]

1 hour ago, Mr Punter said:

Having services on site will save about £10K. I assumed you would have to strip out everything above the top of your ground floor walls. I also assume replacement or thermal upgrade to ground floor. You will not be able to occupy until works are almost complete.

 

Yes, I am planning a thermal upgrade. I want to either start this work before the main build or leave it until after the shell is finished. If it is impossible, we may have a problem, although there is enough space both in front and in the back garden for a container. 

[Randomiser]

On 04/03/2019 at 10:07, bassanclan said:

Demolishing the chimney would not count as commencement unless you are in a conservation area.

You can demolish a chimney (or even a house) without permission.

To fully secure your planning permission in perpetuity you would need to commence works actually related the permission. E.g lay foundations etc

 

I tend to agree that demolishing a chimney would not do the trick, but if the permission requires demolition of part of the building - say that bay window - then I think it is worth seeing if that is sufficient under TCPA 1990 para 56.

 

"...(2)For the purposes of the provisions of this Part mentioned in subsection (3) development shall be taken to be begun on the earliest date on which any material operation comprised in the development begins to be carried out.

 

(3)The provisions referred to in subsection (2) are sections [F861L(5) and (7),] 85(2), 86(6), 87(4), [F989] 91, 92 [F10, 94 and 108(3E)(c)(i)].

 

(4)In subsection (2) “material operation” means—

(a)any work of construction in the course of the erection of a building; F1

[(aa)any work of demolition of a building;]

(b)the digging of a trench which is to contain the foundations, or part of the foundations, of a building;

(c)the laying of any underground main or pipe to the foundations, or part of the foundations, of a building or to any such trench as is mentioned in paragraph (b);

(d)any operation in the course of laying out or constructing a road or part of a road;

(e)any change in the use of any land which constitutes material development...."

 

See here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1990/8/part/III

 

Of course it may be argued that you are not demolitioning a building, but only part of a building.  The issue here is that as far as I am aware TCPA 1990 does not define a building, but the Building Regulations 2010 does define a Building as

 

"...any permanent or temporary building but not any other kind of structure or erection, and a reference to a building includes a reference to part of a building."

 

So I would argue there is a definition of Building in law and that definition says part of a building, i.e. your bay window, counts.

 

All highlighting by me, not in the original.

 

For goodness sake don't rely on this, take professional advice, but I hope it is a helpful starting point.

 

Randomiser.

Edited March 15, 2019 by Randomiser

[oldkettle]

On 15/03/2019 at 14:33, Randomiser said:

 

I tend to agree that demolishing a chimney would not do the trick, but if the permission requires demolition of part of the building - say that bay window - then I think it is worth seeing if that is sufficient under TCPA 1990 para 56.

 

Thank you, @Randomiser, not sure why I've not seen you reply straight away

 

I've realised there is a nice gotcha potentially awaiting us: even though demolishing a chimney would be insufficient to count as a commencement, an unfriendly LPA may easily construe that it was done before the commencement notice for the purposes of CIL exemption! Another ugly problem to deal with - and the PM I hoped to talk to decided he was not interested on the day of the scheduled meeting!

[oldkettle]

Here is a draft plan of the right side of the ground floor I came up with (living / sitting room on the left are left our for simplicity). I know the picture is not great :-) but I really had to use Sketchup: without it I'd have missed issues related to mismatches between the ground and first floor plans.

 

The main question I am trying to answer right now is whether the bathroom and the utility / plant room are large enough. I think I could move  the left wall of the bathroom to the left by another 400mm if required: not sure whether 1800mm+ hall is that important all the way to the kitchen, but it probably looks better, more uniform this way.

 

The utility will need to house a washing mashine, tumble drier (probably under the stairs all the way to the right) and ideally a large sink (probably, behind the shower). Plants - UFH manifold, may be the consumer unit and network equipment. I'm probably going to keep MVHR in the attic as I am hoping to have permanent stairs there. Gas boiler and HW tank (if required) would likely go in the attic as well. I think there will be enough space for Sunamp in this plant room should we decide to have it. Looking at the pictures in TerryE's post, the space under the stairs, close to 2.5 linear metres, should suffice but have I missed something big?

 

Does anybody see a better configuration for these rooms in the space between the kitchen and the bedroom?

 

The position of the stairs is not completely fixed but there is not much I could do with them as I need the landing upstairs in the same place where the downstairs one is to provide the entrance to the home office (it will be right on top of the bedroom downstairs in the bottom right corner. Can't move the stairs all the way to the kitchen either as it would affect the bedroom upstairs.

 

Overall this option allows me to easily fit 300mm going/180mm rise / 950mm wide staircase which would be great to have. 
 

[oldkettle]

I drew this in SweetHome3D, I hope these are better.

 

Ground floor:

 

First floor:

 

TA