Small barn conversion

[Jilly]

Hello I'm very pleased to have found this site. 

 

I have pp on a small barn just 80 sq m. I have about £120k for the conversion, which the architect (who was going to project manage) has warned me isn't enough and that I might need  double.. so I want to investigate the self build route as they are encouraging me to borrow more, which I will struggle to do as i'm semi retired. I'm not able to do more than decorating myself, but live cheaply near the site and am reasonably intelligent and so from reading on here, it doesn't seem impossible. I'm not willing to do any of the drawings myself. 

 

I'll give you some background and welcome your advice, please. 

 

The barn is about 30 years old, wood cladding over block (Bat licence applied for, just common pipistrelles, main stipulation seems to be to remove the cladding by hand) 

It has trees at the back and subsidence in one corner, I haven't yet had a soil analysis or a structural survey, but I am assuming this will be so that the structural engineer can calculate how to make the building support the intended alterations. 

 

I also have to create a new entrance and get my own services in (although can use existing electricity and water from the main house for the build).

The highways have stipulated that I use one of their contractors to create the dropped kerb, however, there is no actual footpath or kerb on that side of the road, so I guess I can query this with them?

 

There is a sewer across the paddock which I assume I can join.

 

The floor is solid concrete, the roof tiles are sound, but the roof is supported by unattractive trusses. However, there is insufficient height for another floor or a mezzanine (except for storage, perhaps).

 

I am considering an amendment to change the windows/patio doors in one corner of the building, it won't radically change the appearance, so hopefully will be acceptable. 

 

There is to be a large south west window cantilevering over the corner of the building, does anyone have advice about these? They look great, but people have discussed excessive solar gain, so I will have to think of some mitigation.

 

I am a bit of a hippy and would love to make the house as sustainable as possible, but think any plans of ground source heat pumps, reed bed sewage system, water bore, passive haus etc are out of reach and I'll have to content myself with keeping everything as affordable as possible (unless you have better ideas, of course!). I would also love to insulate with 'heathy' materials like sheeps wool as I'm asthmatic and can't handle dusty stuff at all...

 

The building is a square box, so hopefully I can use this to my advantage. 

 

I have plenty of time to research this and try not to make mistakes as I can see how expensive this could be.

 

Thank you in advance

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[scottishjohn]

sounds like alot of unquantified  possible costs  there and some possibly wrong assumptions about you being able to join into sewers etc.

I think you need  to do some more homework first -

-subsidence +trees could be another big money problem --can you remove the tree --is it protected ?

subsidence could be lack of foundation as it is a farm building --so planning will ask for new one  you could blow 20k in new foundations depending on ground condtions

bats are definately a big problem --you need definative agreed solution before starting anything 

more homework  is my advice before  committing  to hard cash.

like an actual proper fully approved planning application --that will have to state what things they will allow you to do

are you intending to flatten old barn and start again  ?

If you can it is quite often cheaper than trying to refurbish old things .

where abouts is your site .

 

Edited November 23, 2018 by scottishjohn

[newhome]

Welcome to BuildHub Jilly. I can pretty much only do decorating too but with the help of the guys on this site who have talked me through some other bits and pieces I can now do a few other things that I probably wouldn’t have attempted without this site. 

 

You say that the barn is about 30 years old. Has it ever been lived in and do you know whether it qualifies for the VAT reclaim scheme as that could save you a bit of money. In general terms the barn must not have been used as a dwelling for 10 years including being used as a garage, and the planning permission must have no restrictions, so it must not have clauses that prevent it being sold separately from the main house, or that ties it to a business for example. 

 

What services can you get out there? Gas? 

 

 

[Ferdinand]

You are most welcome, Jilly.

 

Where is it roughly? And is your PP Outline or Detailed?

 

You may be at a later stage already, but I'll say this now to be sure - park all those people telling you this, that or t'other yesterday, and take your time with a bottle of what cures you.

 

You have more time than money; so use your time well and get more bang for your buck by taking the time you need before you start spending the money. The best way to save money is to avoid spending it on the wrong things by deciding well first.

 

The first thing you need to do is decide what you need and want (Must Have - can't live without / Would Like / Would be nice if; ie MH / WL / WIBNI). Turn it into a 2-3 page spec, then a one page summary.

 

Then get feedback on that - from your own sources and by posting it here. 

 

Then, and only then, get into all the implementation and choosing of how to do it on your site.

 

(Unless there is an overriding constraint of some sort to be addressed now).

 

> ground source heat pumps, reed bed sewage system, water bore, passive haus 

These days the first 2 of those can be done by other means far more reasonably nearly all the time, the water bore depends on off mains or on mains, and the passive haus can be as-near-as-dammit done without spending more money than a conventional route - but park all that as well. That is implementation methods and that comes after your initial needs-specification.

 

You will perhaps want to consider if it needs to be non-hippy-compatible for the future, what is it worth and eg "do I need a bath as well as a shower" - but that can be worked-out later.

 

It sounds as though you might enjoy a "design for living" book called "A Pattern Language", and have the oomph to follow through on it as far as it applies to houses. I was introduced to that by one of my dad's last architectural customers, who was an interesting lady retiring back from Africa having lived for years in huts she built herself - and was considering restoring a derelict windmill.

 

Have a look here: http://www.patternlanguage.com/index.html

 

Best of luck

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited November 23, 2018 by Ferdinand

[Ferdinand]

A short video about what can be done to make it interesting, and how you can make it for you - in this case by one of my favourite architects who decided to sleep in the lounge in the house they built in the 1960s (and they are still doing it).

 

 

A good term is "complexly small".

Edited November 23, 2018 by Ferdinand

[Jilly]

Wow, thanks for the quick replies! 

 

We have full pp to create a new dwelling, in the South East on clay in a Conservation Area, the trees (actually out of control hedge species) are therefore in the CA, lining the highway, so I can manage them and expect it would be safest to speak to the tree officer to get permission to reduce the crowns. 

 

We have been unbelievably lucky to be able to create a new entrance as it will involve the removal of some hedge trees (not the ones affecting the foundations) but they are pretty rough. There were no conditions about replacements, but I want to be sympathetic anyway. 

 

It is a conversion, we can't flatten it and start again, so I will have to work with what we have, expensive new foundations and all. 

 

We have not yet divided the title, but have permission to create a separate dwelling. The actual Bat Licence and its stipulations is being prepared. 

 

 

 

 

[scottishjohn]

PP  does  that stands for proposed planning or planning proposal  or full planning consent

If its full( PP) planning permission you have then you will know exactly what you have to do to fullfill its requirements its all in the planning consent,

II am suspecting its not full PP  as disposal of  sewerage would have to be shown on the plans,as would water +electric supply   and to change that will mean more "imperial entanglement" and money +time 

 

 

[newhome]

It sounds like you might qualify for the VAT reclaim scheme so a bit of homework for you to do to make sure (and you might have to contact HMRC to double check if there is any doubt as the rules around conversions are a bit more complex than for new builds). You really need to know from the get go as this will determine how you go about your build to a degree. Essentially if you use a VAT registered builder they should be able to charge you 5% VAT on a supply and fit basis. For materials you buy yourself you will be charged VAT at the standard rate. If you qualify for the DIY Housebuilders Scheme you should be able to claim back the 5% you pay to VAT registered builders and also the standard VAT you pay for materials you buy yourself. Be aware however that you have to pay the VAT yourself and reclaim it once the house is finished so you may need extra cash to tide you over whilst you are waiting for the refund. When you submit the reclaim is when they decide whether you are eligible unfortunately so you need to be very clear when you start otherwise you may bank on getting money back that HMRC later refuse. The other advantage of being eligible to reclaim is that you can buy supplies yourself and fit them yourself or get non VAT registered builders to fit them, but you can still reclaim the VAT you spend on materials. 

 

So a couple of links for you to read and assess your own circumstances:

 

https://www.no-use-empty.org.uk/advice/how-we-can-help/reduced-vat-schemes/

 

Here is the link to the guide on here. the thread mostly covers new builds since that is what most people are doing but the scheme applies to eligible conversions too. Note that it only applies to properties that you or your family intend to live in but it sounds like that is your intention anyway. 

 

 

 

The other thing to note is whether there is an CIL (Community Infrastructure Levy) applicable on the property. As a self builder you should be able to claim an exemption if there is but you must do so BEFORE you start doing any work. 

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/community-infrastructure-levy#relief-and-exemptions

As others have advised, doing a lot of homework first is essential if you are to avoid making costly mistakes. It sounds like you are prepared to put the work into the prep however so you definitely have the right mindset. 
 

[Jilly]

Hi, yes, we do have full planning permission, but I don't recall any mention of sewerage disposal, which I why i made the assumption we could join the one on our land. I will look into it though, thank you, 

[Jeremy Harris]

I can't recall our planners being bothered about sewerage disposal at all. 

 

As it happened we couldn't connect to what we thought was the obvious main sewer nearby, as the water company just said "no".  Instead they wanted us to pay them over £14k for a connection to another manhole 80m up the lane, which would also have meant fitting a pumping station at a cost of an additional couple of thousand pounds.  In the end we got permission from the Environment Agency to discharge the treated effluent from a package treatment plant into the stream alongside our plot, so the sewerage costs only came to around £3k all in.

 

I have learned to never assume anything though.  We have a water pipe running down the lane in front of our house, but the water company wouldn't allow a connection to that, either, but instead wanted us to pay them over £23k to run new water pipe around 120m up the lane.  We ended up getting a borehole drilled in the garden and installing a pump and water treatment equipment, as that was less than half the cost of getting mains water.

[Pauljg79]

On 26/11/2018 at 16:50, JSHarris said:

I can't recall our planners being bothered about sewerage disposal at all. 

 

As it happened we couldn't connect to what we thought was the obvious main sewer nearby, as the water company just said "no".  Instead they wanted us to pay them over £14k for a connection to another manhole 80m up the lane, which would also have meant fitting a pumping station at a cost of an additional couple of thousand pounds.  In the end we got permission from the Environment Agency to discharge the treated effluent from a package treatment plant into the stream alongside our plot, so the sewerage costs only came to around £3k all in.

 

I have learned to never assume anything though.  We have a water pipe running down the lane in front of our house, but the water company wouldn't allow a connection to that, either, but instead wanted us to pay them over £23k to run new water pipe around 120m up the lane.  We ended up getting a borehole drilled in the garden and installing a pump and water treatment equipment, as that was less than half the cost of getting mains water.

 

Some planners are, some aren't, it's still a grey area within the legislation. I spoke to the EA at the last British water meeting and they advised planning was not needed for sewage installations, which is contrary to what their website says.

 

As a rule of thumb you should always go to mains where possible, even if it means pumping the waste water there. Generally speaking the EA wont grant a permit where there is a possibility to send the sewage to a mains sewer (if it is withing a reasonable distance). To use a treatment plant (whether it be a package treatment plant or a septic tank with tertiary treatment like a reed bed) in an SSSI or Special conservation area you will need a permit from the EA as you wont adhere to the general binding rules, therefore you'll have to apply and they will kick it out unless you can prove an extremely good reason why you aren't able to connect to the mains sewer (money isn't a good enough reason, distance is though). If the sewer is on your land and you are allowed to connect to it then it's highly unlikely you'll be able to discharge to the environment. In this instance, levels become important, if you can run the pipes to the sewer and have a gravity fall, then great, no pump needed. If the levels dictate you'll need a pump, then go with a twin pump, pump station (you will want a back up in case one blocks or breaks, otherwise there will be Sh*t everywhere). 

 

In your case JSHarris, you were allowed a permit because the sewer was greater than 30m away.  

[Jeremy Harris]

2 hours ago, Pauljg79 said:

 

In your case JSHarris, you were allowed a permit because the sewer was greater than 30m away.  

 

That isn't correct.  We have a main sewer that is less than 30 metres away, and with an invert level that was plenty deep enough to allow a connection (~ 12m below the invert level of our foul drain first inspection chamber), but the water company were adamant that we could not connect to this sewer.  The house over the lane from us, which has a ground floor that is around 1.5m or so lower than ours, connects to this sewer and our initial assumption (and that of the planners who had already granted PP for a house on our plot) was that we could also connect to that.  In the old planning file there was even a letter from the water company, dating from the consultation period for the previous planning application, stating that mains sewerage was available.

 

As a part of our pre-purchase checks I called the water company to clarify the mains drainage, and water,  connection and get an estimate of costs.  A chap came out to the site and straight away said we could not connect to the nearest main sewer, as they would no longer allow a moled pipe run under the small stream in front of the house.  The neighbours house has their foul drain running under the same stream OK, but that was laid before privatisation and any subsequent changes to regulations. 

 

The water company would only allow a pumped connection to another sewer near the top of the hill behind our plot.  That required that 80m of single track lane be dug up, completely blocking the only access to four houses whilst it was being done, plus the installation of a pumping station.  The best price I was quoted for digging up the lane, laying the pipe and resurfacing, plus the charges from the water company to make the connection, was a bit over £14k.  On top of that we'd have had to fork out a couple of thousand for the pump station and installation.

 

The EA were very helpful, and immediately granted us a permit to discharge to the stream, within hours of me discussing it with them on the phone and making the request.  This reduced our costs by around £13k, as the treatment plant wasn't much more expensive than the pumping station, and cost the same to install.  All this cost assessment was done prior to plot purchase, as a part of my due diligence checks.

 

When I submitted a new planning application, I did include details of the treatment plant on the site plan, but the planners weren't interested in it at all, and said it was just a building regs issue.  I did include our permit to discharge from the EA with the application, really just in case the EA raised it during consultation.  They didn't, but they did cause us a lot of pain and grief over flood risk assessment (our house is on a steep hill well above the stream and the 1/1000 year flood level, let alone the 1/100 year level) and measures to ensure that no mud from the construction was tracked on to the lane where it might contaminate the stream.

 

 

[Pauljg79]

4 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

 

That isn't correct.  We have a main sewer that is less than 30 metres away, and with an invert level that was plenty deep enough to allow a connection (~ 12m below the invert level of our foul drain first inspection chamber), but the water company were adamant that we could not connect to this sewer.  The house over the lane from us, which has a ground floor that is around 1.5m or so lower than ours, connects to this sewer and our initial assumption (and that of the planners who had already granted PP for a house on our plot) was that we could also connect to that.  In the old planning file there was even a letter from the water company, dating from the consultation period for the previous planning application, stating that mains sewerage was available.

 

As a part of our pre-purchase checks I called the water company to clarify the mains drainage, and water,  connection and get an estimate of costs.  A chap came out to the site and straight away said we could not connect to the nearest main sewer, as they would no longer allow a moled pipe run under the small stream in front of the house.  The neighbours house has their foul drain running under the same stream OK, but that was laid before privatisation and any subsequent changes to regulations. 

 

The water company would only allow a pumped connection to another sewer near the top of the hill behind our plot.  That required that 80m of single track lane be dug up, completely blocking the only access to four houses whilst it was being done, plus the installation of a pumping station.  The best price I was quoted for digging up the lane, laying the pipe and resurfacing, plus the charges from the water company to make the connection, was a bit over £14k.  On top of that we'd have had to fork out a couple of thousand for the pump station and installation.

 

The EA were very helpful, and immediately granted us a permit to discharge to the stream, within hours of me discussing it with them on the phone and making the request.  This reduced our costs by around £13k, as the treatment plant wasn't much more expensive than the pumping station, and cost the same to install.  All this cost assessment was done prior to plot purchase, as a part of my due diligence checks.

 

When I submitted a new planning application, I did include details of the treatment plant on the site plan, but the planners weren't interested in it at all, and said it was just a building regs issue.  I did include our permit to discharge from the EA with the application, really just in case the EA raised it during consultation.  They didn't, but they did cause us a lot of pain and grief over flood risk assessment (our house is on a steep hill well above the stream and the 1/1000 year flood level, let alone the 1/100 year level) and measures to ensure that no mud from the construction was tracked on to the lane where it might contaminate the stream.

 

 

Ah ok, I miss read and thought it 80m away. 

 

Yes if the water authority say no, most commonly due to the pipe being up to its capacity, and the next available one is outside of that 30m distance then normally the EA will be happy to grant application. If you have an available sewer within 30m and are allowed to discharge to it, then the EA usually wont grant a permit. 

 

They do their best to get people to discharge to mains sewers rather than the environment.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Pauljg79

[Jeremy Harris]

37 minutes ago, Pauljg79 said:

Ah ok, I miss read and thought it 80m away. 

 

Yes if the water authority say no, most commonly due to the pipe being up to its capacity, and the next available one is outside of that 30m distance then normally the EA will be happy to grant application. If you have an available sewer within 30m and are allowed to discharge to it, then the EA usually wont grant a permit. 

 

They do their best to get people to discharge to mains sewers rather than the environment.

 

Nothing to do with capacity, either.  The sewer the water company wanted us to connect to, up the hill behind our house, runs down and connects to the main sewer in front of the house upstream of where we would have connected, so the load on the nearest sewer would have been the same whichever way we connected to it.

 

The issue was solely that the water company refused to allow us to mole under the stream in order to connect to the main sewer that is just the other side of it.  They quoted some regulation that supposedly prevents sewer connections running underneath water courses, which as far as I could see at the time didn't exist.  Apart from anything else, as well as our neighbours foul drain running under the stream, the foul drains from at least 30 other properties in the village run under it too, as does the main sewer up the hill behind us, where it connects to the really big sewer in the lane on the other side of the stream from us.

 

Frankly the water company were a PITA, as they also wanted to charge us over £23k for a water connection, also from the water main at the top of the hill behind us, but around 140m away.  There's a water supply that runs down the lane in front of our house, that feeds our neighbour, and they wouldn't allow connection to that.  They wanted us to pay to run a new pipe in parallel with it, all the way up the lane.  We decided to drill a borehole for water, as that was a lot cheaper, but were plagued with requests from the water company to get us to accept their quote to supply mains water for a couple of years afterwards.  In the end they sent someone out, long after we'd drilled the borehole, to ask why we weren't accepting their offer for a connection.  I explained that it was far too expensive, and that in my view they had been trying to get us to pay to upgrade their 80 year old cast iron pipe in the lane.  The chap that visited did have the grace to accept that this was what they had been trying to do.  I left things with them saying that when they got around to replacing the pipe in the lane (it's well over-due for replacement and regularly springs leaks up at the top of the hill) we might consider accepting a connection to it, as long as it was no higher than their normal connection charge (I've already put in a capped bit of MDPE at our boundary, less than 2m from where their pipe runs).

[Pauljg79]

1 hour ago, JSHarris said:

 

Nothing to do with capacity, either.  The sewer the water company wanted us to connect to, up the hill behind our house, runs down and connects to the main sewer in front of the house upstream of where we would have connected, so the load on the nearest sewer would have been the same whichever way we connected to it.

 

The issue was solely that the water company refused to allow us to mole under the stream in order to connect to the main sewer that is just the other side of it.  They quoted some regulation that supposedly prevents sewer connections running underneath water courses, which as far as I could see at the time didn't exist.  Apart from anything else, as well as our neighbours foul drain running under the stream, the foul drains from at least 30 other properties in the village run under it too, as does the main sewer up the hill behind us, where it connects to the really big sewer in the lane on the other side of the stream from us.

 

Frankly the water company were a PITA, as they also wanted to charge us over £23k for a water connection, also from the water main at the top of the hill behind us, but around 140m away.  There's a water supply that runs down the lane in front of our house, that feeds our neighbour, and they wouldn't allow connection to that.  They wanted us to pay to run a new pipe in parallel with it, all the way up the lane.  We decided to drill a borehole for water, as that was a lot cheaper, but were plagued with requests from the water company to get us to accept their quote to supply mains water for a couple of years afterwards.  In the end they sent someone out, long after we'd drilled the borehole, to ask why we weren't accepting their offer for a connection.  I explained that it was far too expensive, and that in my view they had been trying to get us to pay to upgrade their 80 year old cast iron pipe in the lane.  The chap that visited did have the grace to accept that this was what they had been trying to do.  I left things with them saying that when they got around to replacing the pipe in the lane (it's well over-due for replacement and regularly springs leaks up at the top of the hill) we might consider accepting a connection to it, as long as it was no higher than their normal connection charge (I've already put in a capped bit of MDPE at our boundary, less than 2m from where their pipe runs).

 

That is crazy! I have seen MDPE pipe moled under a stream before and it was passed by building control. 

 

How do you find the borehole water? Do you run it through a UV lamp? what's the taste like? 

[Jeremy Harris]

On 30/11/2018 at 15:15, Pauljg79 said:

 

That is crazy! I have seen MDPE pipe moled under a stream before and it was passed by building control. 

 

How do you find the borehole water? Do you run it through a UV lamp? what's the taste like? 

 

It was crazy, but then all my dealings with the water company were much the same.  Before we bought the plot, when we had the chap out to see where we could connect to both the sewer and the water main, we were told that there was no water main running down our lane (despite the house over the road on the same lane having mains water).  They were adamant that the only point that we could connect to was at the top of the lane.

 

When we dug across the lane to lay the drain to the stream from our treatment plant, I had to ask every utility company in the UK (there are dozens of them) if they had any services under the area.  The water company confirmed that they had no pipes in the lane.  Our ground works chap didn't believe them, so took things slowly, and uncovered the cast iron water pipe in the middle of the lane.  We photographed it (it was pretty corroded, having been laid in 1934, according to our neighbour) and sent it to the water company who denied it was theirs.  I then followed the line of the pipe and found a stopcock in the verge around 10m away, directly in line with the pipe and clearly marked with the water company name on the top.  I photographed that and sent it to them and they still denied the pipe was theirs.  They did send the local chap around, though, and when I showed him the stopcock, the location of our trench across the lane, the photos of the pipe etc, he walked further up the lane and found another stopcock running off the same pipe feeding a house about 90m further up the lane.  The bloke then had to admit that they did have a pipe in the lane, but were adamant I still couldn't connect to it, as they didn't have it listed as one of their water mains.

 

The borehole was a bit of a saga, told on this forum's predecessor and in my blog (linked in my sig below).  Our main issue (apart from a load of problems with the drilling company, that were eventually resolved) was a combination of a high iron content in the water, plus a tiny bit of dissolved H₂S.  Designing a treatment system to oxidise the ferrous iron to insoluble ferric iron and filtering it out with a backwashing filter was interesting, as there are few UK companies that really understand domestic scale water treatment.  I had a great deal of help from a forum in the USA, where many people have borehole supplies.  One chap in particular was a godsend, as he talked me through everything I needed to do and made designing my own treatment system pretty straightforward.  I ended up using an injected ozone oxidation system, primarily because it is massively more effective at oxidising ferrous iron and H2S, plus it kills pretty much every bug known, and it doesn't adversely impact the taste of the water.

 

It was very much a design and build your own kit sort of job, as importing from the US was too expensive and fraught with problems.  I added a tertiary UV disinfection unit but will probably remove it, as it's not needed and costs a fair bit to run (new UV lamp every year, plus a constant 28 W power demand to run the lamp).  Our raw water tested clear of coliforms before treatment, and with the ozone injection system we already have a pretty good disinfection system, so the UV isn't really doing much (I'd have taken it out before now, but I bought a stock of spare tubes that I might as well use up first).

 

The water tastes great and makes excellent tea, much better than the local mains water around here.  We don't pay any water or sewerage charges, either, and the cost of running the borehole pump, water treatment system and sewerage treatment unit is a lot less than we would pay for mains water and drainage.

[scottishjohn]

sounds just like d&g council .

you get planning ,but then all the details of the build  have to cleared by building control  ,as you also have to get a permit from them  and they are the ones that do all site inspections.

you send your plans to building control and then there are a dozen things that they don,t like ,even though planning passed it,all planning do really is "pass" it in principle.then building control comes takes over

  I know cos i,ve had some  problems like that with them 

I can understand them  not wanting you to connect to a victorian cast water main --digging it up+drilling holes in it etc could just make more fragile +they don,t want to replace it any time soon

check and double check on everything that requires "imperial  authority " and get in in writing --been caught like that as well 

Edited December 2, 2018 by scottishjohn

[the_r_sole]

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Edited September 26, 2019 by the_r_sole