lizzie Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 Would any of you that have Internorm lift and slide doors know if they have Mullion and Transom drainage please. The company that are looking at trying to rectify my threshold problem have asked ...this is what they say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney12 Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 Hi Lizzie ive just had a look at mine and I can’t see any drainage slots/holes/channels. As far as I can see the design is such that once “dropped” they provide a complete weather tight seal. Perhaps though im missing something. Send me some pictures of the slot referenced in your exert and I’ll look again. If it’s any consolation it’s taken multiple visits by the installer to fix my various leaking Internorm patio doors (I have 6 sets). Ironically the only one that hasn’t leaked is the slider Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lizzie Posted October 30, 2018 Author Share Posted October 30, 2018 1 hour ago, Barney12 said: Hi Lizzie ive just had a look at mine and I can’t see any drainage slots/holes/channels. As far as I can see the design is such that once “dropped” they provide a complete weather tight seal. Perhaps though im missing something. Send me some pictures of the slot referenced in your exert and I’ll look again. If it’s any consolation it’s taken multiple visits by the installer to fix my various leaking Internorm patio doors (I have 6 sets). Ironically the only one that hasn’t leaked is the slider Thanks @Barney12 my problem stems from incorrect fitting. They made no provision for a dip in the slab to take the sliders (4 of them) so they just plonked them down on top and screwed them to walls. I had water ingress from the day they went in, no one would take responsibility they all kept blaming each other, We carried on with the build with water coming in all over, even the new plaster was wet. Window installers kept saying it was because our cladding was not finsished etc...I kept telling them it was coming in from underneath no one would listen. This went on from August to March. Useless PM shiftier than a cart load of monkeys by then because I think he had worked out what the problem was and that he had cocked up at slab pour stage. He never admitted it this is just my surmising. By the time I think he had worked it out he was working for MBC as their client problem troubleshooter and and I think he must have seen the way others had done it when visiting his MBC clients and the penny dropped but he never admitted anything to me and even though still being paid by me whilst also working for MBC I had to work it out myself.It is not an MBC problem they poured the slab to window drawing he gave them, it may have been signed off by me but it was his drawing and he told me this was correct I just had to sign as the client. I trusted his professional knowledge and expertise as that was what I was paying him for. i got on to Internorm myself in March because through many hours of internet trawling, you tube etc I had worked out that my install was not done correctly. Internorm would not intercede with their installer (who by that time was on a temp suspension due to ‘issues’) but they did put me in touch with another installer in another part of the country. Thomas Hagen was very busy at the time and cancelled his booked visit and could not come for weeks ahead so we went with Internorm suggestion of other experienced installer to inspect and after a site visit a method of semi rectification was agreed. I had to pay for his time but he was great, came and supervised my men who had to cut away sections of the overhang of the slab. This cutting away allowed water to drain out of the weep holes and get away instead of just sitting on the slab and running back in and under. This has left me with level thresholds that sit around 10mm off the ground and the drainage holes that would be below ground level draining into a channel are above ground. These are the drainage holes you would not see they are in the fibreglass underside of the threshold they should not be above ground in a correct install. Because I cannot now sink the thresholds into the slab as they were designed to be installed I have a situation where the underside of the threshold is exposed. I need to cover and protect this whilst still allowing the drainage also because the thresholds are unsupported and off the ground they flex when you step on them. We need to pack them to stop the flexing and possible longer term implications with bowing. If you look at your slider thresholds when open in the runner channel there are a series of small holes, these drain out via what should be the underground holes but in my case are left hanging in mid air. Really difficult to photograph but I have tried my best. Wish I had chosen different windows and different installer LOL Bet you feel like that somedays too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney12 Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 Ah OK, got you. I was thrown by the reference to transoms and mullions. I’m familiar with the threshold drainage you refer to (it’s the same on the flush fit patio doors). I’ll take a look at mine. MBC actaully mis-interpreted the slab detail for my slider. I spotted it after the slab poor so MBC had to cut and grind the correct recess, it took a poor MBC employee all day! It was their error as they hadn’t read the technical drawings correctly. If I hadn’t have spotted it then I’d be in the same situation as you. ill be back with photos...... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney12 Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 OK, so the short answer to your question is; I don't have any drainage! I'm wondering if your sliders are a different design/specification as the more I look at mine I just cant see why any drainage is required. Unlike the patio doors (and windows) which open inwards there isn't the opportunity for water to get past the external seals and into the void/gap before the next set of seals. Here are some photo's: You can see in the above image that my internal floor is flush with the cill/frame. Here's the outside. The patio slabs will sit flush with bottom of the silver threshold you can just see to the right. In between the two will be a micro slot drainage system just so any water that does head in that direction is diverted away. Although not required I've also specified free draining gravel around the entire perimeter of the house. This is a view under that black rubber skirt (which is simply a strip bonded on with silicone, fairly pants design really!). The slider is sat bridged between the concrete slab and the EPS. The red membrane you can see is our radon barrier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lizzie Posted October 30, 2018 Author Share Posted October 30, 2018 2 hours ago, Barney12 said: OK, so the short answer to your question is; I don't have any drainage! I'm wondering if your sliders are a different design/specification as the more I look at mine I just cant see why any drainage is required. Unlike the patio doors (and windows) which open inwards there isn't the opportunity for water to get past the external seals and into the void/gap before the next set of seals. Here are some photo's: You can see in the above image that my internal floor is flush with the cill/frame. Here's the outside. The patio slabs will sit flush with bottom of the silver threshold you can just see to the right. In between the two will be a micro slot drainage system just so any water that does head in that direction is diverted away. Although not required I've also specified free draining gravel around the entire perimeter of the house. This is a view under that black rubber skirt (which is simply a strip bonded on with silicone, fairly pants design really!). The slider is sat bridged between the concrete slab and the EPS. The red membrane you can see is our radon barrier. Thank you @Barney12 You have it in one where you say the slabs will sit flush with the bottom of the silver threshold and there will be a micro drainage slot. That is how it should be and that is what I do not have. Because there was no provision for the drop in the slab for the threshold to sit in and it was just plonked on top we ended up having to cut away eps and slab to give an area for drainage in front of the threshold and slightly under it but not all the way as we could not destabilise the window.. What then happened is that because of various technical issues (builder talk for too difficult) we did not get our micro drainage in and paving slab has had to sit under the drain hole rather than above it. So I am left with a threshold that is designed to drain into an underground chamber and that drainage should be hidden from view but I do not have the drainage chamber as they couldn't get it in so I will have water discharging from drainage holes at surface level. I need to fill the gap between underside of threshold and slab in some way that makes this b mess look neat whilst still allowing water to drain out. If I block those weep holes under the threshold then any water draining via the frame into the runner area of the threshold will just back up and come inside. My carpenter had thought maybe a piece of fabricated aluminium to match thresholds and perforated to drain would do it and that certainly would have looked nicer but in trying to find someone to do that for me I have been told that was not really a recommended solution as weather could drive water back up (its on the weather side of the building). I am told the only sensible solution is a clear silicone in the circa 10mm space between threshold and slab (with packers to strengthen threshold as it is not on a firm base but is 'floating'). My own back stop solution as a sort of diy job was to shove a load of grout in there and keep the drain holes open with sticks while I did it. The silicone solution is really just a bit more of a sophisticated (and expensive) version of that really. TBH I am at the end of my tether with this whole debacle. It is clear that from the window supplier right down the chain no joined up thinking was used, I have reams of emails about it and I can see I am asking the same questions over and over right from the start. All to no avail, just kept being told it would be sorted and now they have all gone and I am left with the mess to sort out. At least the cutting away of eps and slab and insertion of a membrane stopped water coming inside. Sorry its been 12 months or more of hell on these windows and it has been buck passing of unsurpassed skill on the part of all concerned. There is a great utube video of some germans fitting an Internorm lift and slide level threshold door. It shows exactly how the drainage works. Searched utube cant find it now. I have HS330 model. Got tech drawings of all sorts if you need them. All just wallpaper for me as once the fundamental error was made at slab pour/window install there was no real way back to get them as they should be short of dismantling the house. I think you must have some drainage - from inside look in the silver bit of the threshold where the doors run, on the small lip facing you are a series of small holes, you may have to get down on floor and look. Those weep holes feed out through the slot holes under the threshold that are meant to be underground. I know it doesnt seem likely for water to get in anywhere on frames but they have made provision for drainage in case it does. Thorough Austrian engineering its just a shame their Uk installers let them down so badly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesP Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 @lizzie @Barney12 Thought I would join in as I have Internorm HS330 sliders. Enclosed are 2 photographs. 1547 is shot from inside looking out and shows a small circular hole. I assume this is to drain any rain which hits the glass and drains outside above the rubber strip. 1544 the drainage slot to the outside and runs down the outside of the rubber curtain. Does this help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lizzie Posted October 30, 2018 Author Share Posted October 30, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, JamesP said: @lizzie @Barney12 Thought I would join in as I have Internorm HS330 sliders. Enclosed are 2 photographs. 1547 is shot from inside looking out and shows a small circular hole. I assume this is to drain any rain which hits the glass and drains outside above the rubber strip. 1544 the drainage slot to the outside and runs down the outside of the rubber curtain. Does this help? perfect pictures of the drainage thank you and actually it is showing some more holes on the underside I have not yet seen on mine...I have to lie on floor with torch to spot them. Will go out tomorrow and see if I can get them all marked up. Your is very neat mine is extremely battered and rough underneath. See you got the membrane on too. Must have had decent installers! Edited October 30, 2018 by lizzie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesP Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 (edited) Hi @lizzie You are not alone with issues. The Internorm slider (no leaks but some minor damage) was ok regarding the installation, the other 26 windows were not. Fitted back in April and by coincidence they are replacing the wavey 3G glass tomorrow. I will keep you updated. Edited October 30, 2018 by JamesP 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lizzie Posted October 30, 2018 Author Share Posted October 30, 2018 4 minutes ago, JamesP said: Hi @lizzie You are not alone with issues. The Internorm slider (no leaks but some minor damage) was ok regarding the installation, the other 26 windows were not. Fitted back in April and by coincidence they are replacing the wavey 3G glass tomorrow. I will keep you updated. Fingers crossed for you! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 Looking at the photos above, is it possible to slide something like a thin bit of slate under the outer cill of the window, with a drainage slot cut into it, @lizzie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 Hi Lizzie. The photographs I promised are the same as those posted by @Barney12 and @JamesP so no point in duplicating things. To be honest we have had a nightmare with Internorm Windows. Today we have finally got our installation completed, 13 months after our frame went up. Next test is the weather to see if we end up with leaks like so many on here. If people want a slightly more detailed explanation of our problems pls PM me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lizzie Posted October 31, 2018 Author Share Posted October 31, 2018 (edited) @Barney12 @JamesP @Pete Thanks guys. Its terrible that these really expensive top notch windows are let down so badly by the installers. Internorm really ought to have a better training and supervision plan for installers. Some of the team that did mine said they not installed them before and said one window install was the same as another........shuddered at the time, seems now that shudder was justified. @JSHarris thank you are you able to expand a bit on that for me. Sounds interesting I welcome any potential solutions. There is no possibility to drain into the ground below the thresholds its solid concrete and porcelain now. I have now established that the lift and slides have both mullion and transom drainage.............please don't ask me any tech questions on that because I don't have the answers I'm just repeating what I have been told LOL Edited October 31, 2018 by lizzie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClairedM Posted September 18 Share Posted September 18 @lizzie I've had a really crap install by Ecotec of Internorm windows. Did you manage to get any help from Internorm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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