The Art of Negotiating

[ultramods]

The timberframe company will be supplying the Rationel windows and doors from ADW. In the quote from the timber frame company the TF is £68,000 and the windows and doors are £26,000.

 

I then went to ADW and asked for a price if I were to buy the windows and doors direct from them, they said the price would be £25,000, so £1000 less than if I get them through the TF company, however I don't really want to do this incase there are issues with the measurements etc.

 

I then asked ADW what discount they could offer me and showed them a comparable quote from a different company which is £18,000. ADW said that the only provide discount to the timber frame company so I would need to negotiate with he timber frame company.

 

I then explained this to the TF company and asked for their best price for the TF and windows and doors. They came back with a £1000 discount.

 

Am I expecting to much to, to me a £1000 discount seams very low on a £94,000 order?

 

I suppose part of the problem is that I don't have a lower TF kit price yet, which I could use to increase my negotiating position.

[ProDave]

What I found with ADW is there is a certain amount of negotiation room, a figure of 5% was once heard to be spoken.  YOU have much more of a vested interest to negotiate the maximum discount you can, your timber frame company will not be so bothered.

 

So you negotiate the best deal you can, then give that quote to the TF company and hat is the price they will pay.  This is exactly what we did.

 

There are two advantages to getting the TF company to buy them. the first is they will be doing "supply and fit" so if something does not fit, it is their problem to solve.  It also means the TF company can charge you at zero VAT. If you bought them you would have to pay the VAT and wait until the end of the build to claim it back.

[newhome]

We didn't source our windows through the timber frame company (Scotframe) as we wanted integral blinds and they couldn't supply those (at the time anyway). We had no issues at all with the fit (but I admit that your windows look more complex than mine). I understand your motivation for sourcing via the TF company but we had no choice to go elsewhere to get the windows we wanted (they actually cost more, not less as you can imagine with the blinds fitted). If you have a quote of 7k less than the TF company is offering you for essentially the same thing, that's a very big difference and personally I would look into that route further if only to rule it out once and for all. I think (it's a long time ago so struggling to remember plus the hubby dealt with most of it) we got a window schedule from the TF company with all of the measurements. We sent that to the window company, they sent back a detailed schedule of the windows showing sizes, openings, handle position etc that we checked and rechecked, then we asked the TF company to confirm it was ok, and then ordered, and everything was fine. We were a bit anal about the windows as it was important to get right but a 7k difference does leave you with a bit of scope for something to go awry however undesirable. Alternatively could you show the TF company your best quote and ask if they will source via a more competitive company? I'm not sure how much profit the TF companies make on windows TBH. Their main profit must be from the frame itself surely?

 

From reading a couple of threads on here where windows have gone wrong it often seems to be due to the lack of documentation from the window company. If you aren't being provided with a very detailed view of what you have ordered to check and sign off every single aspect of the windows then walk away as this is where things seem to go wrong. 

 

And yes @ProDave is right, the timber frame company won't charge you vat as long as they are erecting the frame and fitting the windows. We were supply only so had to pay the vat up front anyway (still waiting for it back lol). 

 

[ultramods]

@prodave I was trying to negotiate with ADW but they were adamant that they already provide a discount to the TF company, but wouldn't say how much (which is understandable). They might have treated your case differently if your joiner didn't use ADW a lot, therefore there wasn't a contractual discount already in place.

 

However I assumed they would offer me better than a 1% discount for the TF and the windows and doors.

 

Also when i asked the TF company for a discount he asked me who would be buying the TF me or the joiner, again I said the joiner for VAT reasons. So again the joiner is probably getting the discount and not me.

 

 

 

 

[Dreadnaught]

@ultramods when I visited a certain timber-frame manufacturer recently, I discussed the question of window pricing and discounts. The sales person said they make most of their margin on the installation part not the windows themselves. I am not sure if that's fully true or just spin. Its probably a combination of both. 

 

I came away with the impression that I would be following @ProDave's approach for mine. Negotiate my own window price and take it to the TF manufacturer. And if the TF company wont install my chosen window, which is highly likely as that manufacturer had only a single preferred supplier and refused to install for anyone else, then I would contract the window supplier to install. I am hoping that in either case that its a design-and-install approach which simplifies the VAT. And in each case I am handing off the measurement/specification risk to one or other party. 

 

I am not sure if this is a good approach but it is my current thoughts.

Edited June 2, 2018 by Dreadnaught

[ultramods]

@Dreadnaught The TF company are supply only of the TF and the windows and doors.

 

Once i have picked a joiner maybe I need to see his take on it, as he may just advise to buy them direct from Rationel (ADW)

[Dreadnaught]

1 minute ago, ultramods said:

The TF company are supply only of the TF and the windows and doors.

 

That might fit with what I was told then. That margins are tight on the windows themselves alone, even if they are concealing a discount from you perhaps its not huge.