Diy(ing) an air to air unit

[G and J]

We're struggling to get an upstairs fan coil solution (which was the original plan and piped for) that we're comfortable with, but in the intervening period since we've moved in (heatwaves etc) we're wondering if we should just go for a stand alone air conditioning unit.

 

Panasonic do a good looking r290 unit (solo) of the right spec, which looks straight forward enough to fit (annoying that it will be retro fit but there you go...) but

 

1. Is diy installation an reasonable option? and 

2. One supplier claims that unless professionally installed the warranty is invalid. Accurate or likely to be part of the sales pitch?

 

Views appreciated.

[LaChab]

Which unit are you thinking of? (Google failed me!)

[SteamyTea]

2 hours ago, G and J said:

we're wondering if we should just go for a stand alone air conditioning unit

If you hunt around on here, our old mate @Jeremy Harris fitted one, part from lifting it up, I seem to remember that it was fairly simple.

You may have trouble buying one though without an F-Gas certificate.

[G and J]

1 hour ago, LaChab said:

Which unit are you thinking of? (Google failed me!)

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.oceanairuk.com/products/panasonic-rac-solo-compact-heating-air-conditioner-1-7kw-p-mog16ic5-e-external-grille-insect-protection-kit-1%3Fsrsltid%3DAfmBOorsxLd_RWG-eEId7ZEu1e5C_NQgel_LbDYGxL0LQYhH7nIZHS_G&ved=2ahUKEwiDmqma1sWWAxVdWkEAHbL3ENEQFnoECCkQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2ow-2bmcoheKoRR2Eey5TB

 

14 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

You may have trouble buying one though without an F-Gas certificate

Good old AI "suggests" f gas not needed for r290, but?

 

 

[-rick-]

15 minutes ago, G and J said:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.oceanairuk.com/products/panasonic-rac-solo-compact-heating-air-conditioner-1-7kw-p-mog16ic5-e-external-grille-insect-protection-kit-1%3Fsrsltid%3DAfmBOorsxLd_RWG-eEId7ZEu1e5C_NQgel_LbDYGxL0LQYhH7nIZHS_G&ved=2ahUKEwiDmqma1sWWAxVdWkEAHbL3ENEQFnoECCkQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2ow-2bmcoheKoRR2Eey5TB

 

Good old AI "suggests" f gas not needed for r290, but?

 

The AI is sending you down the wrong path (slightly).

 

That particular unit doesn't need you to fiddle with gas at all. It's definitely diyable. Downsides are it requires two 100+mm holes in the wall (and thus mounting to an external wall) which unless you are very careful is going to mess with your air tightness. Equally, those holes will provide a route for external air into the unit bypassing insulation/heat exchange. It won't get into the room but in a tightly insulated house it may create a cold area in winter. Those two holes also bypass your insulation for sound deadening so you are likely to hear the outside more directly in that room. Finally, the compressor is in the internal unit so these will be louder than conventional split A/C (or water based fancoils).

 

Given the temperature has now gone down and you don't have to rush, I'd take a step back and look again at fancoils. See if you can make progress there. Failing that, look at proper split A/C units (likely requiring an installer - but the units are cheaper so overall cost of that install vs this unit might not be huge).

 

What's the issue you are having with fancoils?

[JohnMo]

Why not just get some Jags Strada Hybrid or similar. They are designed to run cooling a above dew point, same as the UFH. So no condensate drains etc. Another option is https://www.trimley.uk/ which is local to you I believe.

 

Through wall are fine, the Panasonic one you refer just needs two 100mm holes through an outside wall, plus the condensation drain - which can be through the wall also.

 

But no idea why your having issues getting a fan coil

[G and J]

29 minutes ago, -rick- said:

What's the issue you are having with fancoils?

Getting specs to make sure they are going to work in the way we want....size of units vs effectiveness....ability to locate where we want them.

 

Spilt system is not an option we want to take, mostly due to the limitation of our plot and also for harmonious relations with our neighbours.

 

32 minutes ago, -rick- said:

Downsides are it requires two 100+mm holes in the wall (and thus mounting to an external wall) which unless you are very careful is going to mess with your air tightness. Equally, those holes will provide a route for external air into the unit bypassing insulation/heat exchange. It won't get into the room but in a tightly insulated house it may create a cold area in winter. Those two holes also bypass your insulation for sound deadening so you are likely to hear the outside more directly in that room. Finally, the compressor is in the internal unit so these will be louder than conventional split A/C (or water based fancoils).

Downsides all relevant and need to be factored in, but sleep deprivation is real!

[G and J]

3 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Another option is https://www.trimley.uk/ which is local to you I believe.

Looking at website now!

[G and J]

7 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Another option is https://www.trimley.uk/ which is local to you I believe.

Literally down the road. Limited info but look to be wall mounted (we're looking for ceiling) and again size vs output for cooling isn't as 'good'.

 

We would really have prefered the fan coil route (our ufh cooling has been great), but there is also a question of future proofing...we don't want to cool below dew point, but in balmy Suffolk are the fan coils going to be enough?

 

Also 'investing' in appropriate blind for large west (ish) window, which will be great in the shoulder seasons, but in a heatwave not so great. The things that you only find out when you move in, despite meticulous planning!

[JohnMo]

More info here

https://community.openenergymonitor.org/t/is-is-still-possible-to-recommend-a2w-for-none-detached-properties/30194/19

 

That is where I first saw them

[JohnMo]

3 minutes ago, G and J said:

we're looking for ceiling)

The Panasonic one you referenced is a wall mounted also

[G and J]

2 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

6 minutes ago, G and J said:

we're looking for ceiling)

The Panasonic one you referenced is a wall mounted also

Good spot......we piped for ceiling mounted on internal wall. Can't  (or possibly more accurately don't want to) sensibly get pipes anywhere else for wall mounting.

 

This unit would go discretely in a different place. 

[-rick-]

1 minute ago, G and J said:

Good spot......we piped for ceiling mounted on internal wall. Can't  (or possibly more accurately don't want to) sensibly get pipes anywhere else for wall mounting.

 

This unit would go discretely in a different place. 

 

IMV the A/C unit would be much more unpleasant due to compressor noise. Would likely keep me up at night (light sleeper). Quiet fancoil will be much nicer.

[G and J]

30 minutes ago, -rick- said:

likely keep me up at night (light sleeper

Unlikely to keep going overnight, and the other consideration as also dries the air (which has an impact on comfort) likely not to need it working so hard as fan coil which helps balance out noise

[Oz07]

4 hours ago, JohnMo said:

Why not just get some Jags Strada Hybrid or similar. They are designed to run cooling a above dew point, same as the UFH. So no condensate drains etc. Another option is https://www.trimley.uk/ which is local to you I believe.

 

Through wall are fine, the Panasonic one you refer just needs two 100mm holes through an outside wall, plus the condensation drain - which can be through the wall also.

 

But no idea why your having issues getting a fan coil

Whats the difference between those trimley and a standard fcu? I know nothing. Those trimley don't appear to be the nicest looking things. I looked at the cooling performance I can just imagine my missus moaning that the fake aircon isn’t doing the job properly. I presume similar to other fcu? I suppose the limiting factor is the dew point of water.  

[G and J]

1 hour ago, Oz07 said:

Whats the difference between those trimley and a standard fcu? I know nothing. Those trimley don't appear to be the nicest looking things. I looked at the cooling performance I can just imagine my missus moaning that the fake aircon isn’t doing the job properly. I presume similar to other fcu? I suppose the limiting factor is the dew point of water.  

Apart from aesthetics I don’t think there is a difference.  Many, maybe most FCUs are specced for running below dew point.   I am guessing that cooling levels will be about a third at 15°C compared with 7°C flow temp for a room temp of 23°C.   Some FCU companies are now publishing 16°C flow temp cooling data, which is kinda handy.  
 

I wouldn’t call it fake air con, all these systems have the same components, but it is limited by the desire to avoid condensation.   Perhaps we should call it airconlite. 
 

But your point about capacity is well made.   The best FCU I can find will deliver circa 800W of cooling at 15°C flow temp. These unit’s are about 1.3 x the size of the 1.7kW Panasonic monoblock a2a.   So the base plan was to have two FCUs upstairs, and they’d be installed already I’d we hadn’t hit the rocks when trying to buy them.  But the more I look at it the better the Panasonic thingy looks.  
 

But can I install it myself and still have a warranty…..

[-rick-]

25 minutes ago, G and J said:

But your point about capacity is well made.   The best FCU I can find will deliver circa 800W of cooling at 15°C flow temp. These unit’s are about 1.3 x the size of the 1.7kW Panasonic monoblock a2a.   So the base plan was to have two FCUs upstairs, and they’d be installed already I’d we hadn’t hit the rocks when trying to buy them.  But the more I look at it the better the Panasonic thingy looks.  

 

I'm guessing you didn't insulate your pipes (and a condensate drain) to give you the option of running a little below dew point if the need arose?

 

What is the FCU you are looking at? Guessing supplier didn't want to sell to non-installer.

[-rick-]

2 hours ago, Oz07 said:

Whats the difference between those trimley and a standard fcu? I know nothing. Those trimley don't appear to be the nicest looking things.

 

This maybe a bit harsh but they look like a guy in his bedroom has cobbled together some pc water cooling parts and fans and 3d printed a case for them and has now set up a company to sell them. (I've not looked hard at them and they are probably doing it properly but they have a very 3d printed look).

 

Pretty much any unit other sold as an FCU will support going below dew point. That's the primary market after all (proper air con performance). It's only a relatively small market of eco warriors and retro fit installations where below dew point is a problem so that will be an afterthought. So trimley have identified a market opportunity. Shame about the design.

[G and J]

2 hours ago, -rick- said:

I'm guessing you didn't insulate your pipes (and a condensate drain) to give you the option of running a little below dew point if the need arose?

No, we didn’t.  We wanted a single zone with the UFH and we don’t want misty floor tiles.

 

2 hours ago, -rick- said:

What is the FCU you are looking at? Guessing supplier didn't want to sell to non-installer.

We planned around the Myson iVector 2, but that is not available and they don’t know if or when stocks will come into Blighty.  

 

We then spent literally months trying to get info out of the distributor for Maxa fancoils, as one of theirs looked good.   But if it’s just too hard to source then what chance future support?

 

Since I have been talking to Clivet and in fairness a member of staff leaving and holidays (Italy shuts for August, apparently) have slowed things down but if the monoblock aircon idea hadn’t landed we’d soon be placing an order, but now we are rethinking.

 

The fancoil market in the UK doesn’t really exist for domestic.   The industry is geared up to compete for whole travel lodges and the like.  Sometimes the Pooliverse really is trying to tell us something…

[G and J]

2 hours ago, -rick- said:

So trimley have identified a market opportunity. Shame about the design.

They aren’t alone, other fancoil companies are starting to publish above dew point cooling figures, but it’s a tiny market at the mo.    Remember, the second mouse gets the cheese.

Edited 44 minutes ago by G and J
Damn spillchocker munged my text again!

[JohnMo]

3 hours ago, G and J said:

Apart from aesthetics I don’t think there is a difference.

A few differences, mainly they are designed not to produce condensation, a normal fan coil is designed to run below dew point.  So these units will have no condescension tray etc.