Condensate pipe

[Babybirddog]

Hi, I am after some advice.

Just been to visit my 92 year old mother. Didn't realise that British Gas were replacing her boiler. All the internal stuff looks OK but a bit concerned about the condensate drain that has just been placed in a downpipe branch. Not fixed just resting in there. Ignore blue cloth, protection from stripping paint.

Thanks. Karen.

[SimonD]

Yeah, that's not great. It should be fully insulated and the insulation should go all the way through the wall. Just resting like that isn't good either. I would personally probably have 2 clips - one just after the bend as it exits the wall and the second before it enters the down pipe. Also, wtf were they thinking with the black? Just looks crap. Not very good standard at all and enough to question the rest of the installation, frankly. Get them back to sort it out as it doesn't comply with the regs or with the manufacturer's instructions on condensate drainage for a start. They should know better. 

[Nickfromwales]

British Gas are just shite on toast, and their forte is ripping off pensioners.

 

Be lucky if she got a Worcester, more likely they've gone bottom shelf and fitted a glow-worm.

 

The above is exactly what I would have drawn if someone asked me  to sketch a typical BG condensate arrangement. Just shocking.

 

I went to one pensioner that had become another victim, and as they hadn’t brought a ladder, above 2m around the side of the house, the copper gas pipe just wasn’t clipped, literally flapping in the wind.

 

They put a combi in and left the old boy with a manual mixer shower, so he was getting scalding hot water from it; you can’t leave anyone infirm with a non-thermostatic shower fed from and instantaneous hot water heater.
 

List of this goes on and on, from what I’ve seen over the years from BG.

 

Great adverts, even better sales-people,  then the most dogshit plumbing you’ve ever seen.

 

 

[Nickfromwales]

1 hour ago, SimonD said:

They should know better

They couldn't give 2 (expletive deleted)s mate.

[Gus Potter]

3 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

They couldn't give 2 (expletive deleted)s mate.

I agree how on earth can this be justified. 

 

Now they might say well ok we are following the gas regs we have the right tun dish inside so the over pressure is discharged. 

 

Putting my SE hat on I'll say if that pipe freezes you can't have water pouring into the structure. Now the building regs support my statement. 

 

It's a disgrace. Between you and I @Nickfromwaleswe could make hay with this compliant! And to do this to a person of this age is appalling. My own view is that there needs to be a bit of punishment element to discourage others. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Babybirddog said:

Hi, I am after some advice.

The way you actually win this argument is to use a technique that I deploy against say the NHBC for example. You might have a valid case for saying it's a structural safety issue. Then your case will get elevated up the chain. The structural issue is that if the pipe freezes water will potentially get into the structure and cause structural damage. You might argue that it might stain your flooring..but that is subjective, but as an SE if I argue the safety case they start to maybe wake up and smell the coffee.

 

Karen, be persistent. What is happening here is gate keeping, they deny, delay, defend. 

 

 

 

[Gus Potter]

Ok @Nickfromwales and

2 hours ago, Babybirddog said:

Hi, I am after some advice.

Karen. To expand, my mum is 95. The following happend to my neighbour. 

 

The rainwater down pipe got blocked and the water backed up. The water then flooded back up the discharge pipe, over flowed the tundish inside, soaked the electrical fuse box, soaked the floors.

 

Karen. You are right on this. If you need some help then happy to chip in with a draft text to support a complaint as I'm sure @Nickfromwales will also do.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SimonD]

24 minutes ago, Gus Potter said:

Now they might say well ok we are following the gas regs we have the right tun dish inside so the over pressure is discharged. 

 

Putting my SE hat on I'll say if that pipe freezes you can't have water pouring into the structure. Now the building regs support my statement. 

 

The condensate drain doesn't really work like this. The condensate pipework is technically part of the boiler flue, so it has a 75mm condensate seal trap built into the boiler. In the event of freezing the condensate backs up into the the trap, and then into the boiler heat exchanger and triggers an ignition lock out in the boiler. Depending on the manufacturer's instructions, the condensate drain may not require an air gap where it connects into the drain pipe.

Unless the system has a UVC, it's unlikely to use a tundish as there will be a blow off pipe for the pressure relief valve. This should be directed to the outside, or a suitable drain. There's a chance the installer here might have installed the prv into this condensate drain pipe in which case it would need a tundish, but I'd wouldn't expect BG to do something like this - usually they drill a whole and stick a 15mm copper pipe through. Only a couple of manufacturers, like Viessmann have a combined prv and condensate drain, which is again unlikely with BG installations.

Best thing to do is for @Babybirddog to call Gas Safe to start a complaint, sending over a picture and then ask for an inspector to come and have a look at the whole installation - basically start the call with a nice question about whether it's correct or not. Then contact BG armed with Gas Safe info. With Gas Safe they will only allow the home owner to submit the complaint. The last one I had was when a customer of mine, an elderly lady who was mostly chair and bed bound, asked me to come and service her boiler. When I tested gas operating pressure with the gas fire running it was below the safe minimum for the fire. I asked her when the fire had been installed, and got the full story on a crap installation that included badly laid out coals which meant the gas fire wasn't combusting correctly either. The installer hadn't registered the installation with Gas Safe. I called them but they wouldn't accept my complaint as a Gas Safe registered engineer even though I told them the installation was unsafe.
 

58 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

They couldn't give 2 (expletive deleted)s mate.

 

Sadly, whoever did it, didn't! It could have been a sub-contractor too.

[Gus Potter]

6 minutes ago, SimonD said:

The condensate drain doesn't really work like this. The condensate pipework is technically part of the boiler flue, so it has a 75mm condensate seal trap built into the boiler. In the event of freezing the condensate backs up into the the trap,

I was generalising. I makes no difference as you should know. The condensate seal trap works the same way. It does not matter if it is internal or external to the boiler. The fact is that if water backs up in the rain water pipe it's going to piss out inside the house big time and wet all the electrics for example. . Of course it triggers a cut out of the boiler but where does the over pressure from the rain water pipe go then. If the rain water pipe backs up then the pressure head is at gutter level say that is 2.5 to 3.0m head. 

 

In the round the thing stinks.

 

14 minutes ago, SimonD said:

Unless the system has a UVC, it's unlikely to use a tundish as there will be a blow off pipe for the pressure relief valve.

This sounds like a bit of a straw man argument. 

 

16 minutes ago, SimonD said:

There's a chance the installer here might have installed the prv into this condensate drain pipe in which case it would need a tundish, but I'd wouldn't expect BG to do something like this - usually they drill a whole and stick a 15mm copper pipe through. Only a couple of manufacturers, like Viessmann have a combined prv and condensate drain, which is again unlikely with BG installations.

Are you serious? A Pressure relief valve into a condensate pipe? Can you explain in lay terms?