Fire Rated Cavity Closers

[Jammy5]

1 minute ago, Nickfromwales said:

I've not long got off a Teams meeting, with my new clients and the newly-appointed AT. It was a great meeting, ideas shared, bad ones guffawed at, and a high-value next step for the clients self-build adventure. At NO point, none whatsoever, should this be so fecking difficult!!

I'm guessing there's no way of getting any money back for the lack of support?

 

I just have to cut my losses and get someone else on board?

[Nickfromwales]

3 minutes ago, Jammy5 said:

I'm guessing there's no way of getting any money back for the lack of support?

 

I just have to cut my losses and get someone else on board?

I'd squeeze these lot for every once of blood I could get from them. Time to go at them to get what you expected to receive, or to ask for an adjustment in their fees to reflect your dissapontment.

 

Mention their expected "online review"........

[Jammy5]

Just so I'm clear, I'll check my contract with them tomorrow and specifically scope.

 

Out of curiosity, for someone to act as the architect during the build stage, what is a general finger in the air fee?

 

Or is this part and parcel of the support they should provide in completing building regulations drawings and consultation during this phase. As in the designer being on hand to answer TQ's?

 

 

[Gus Potter]

It will take you a bit of time but you can just post them on this thread. 

 

If you feel you have made a mistake, just ask the MODS to help you, they are great! If you accidentally post confidential stuff they will remove it. I think there is a Mod on duty pretty much all the time. 

 

The main thing to recognise is that BH folk are not going to jump down your throat, you are not going to get pulled up on your spelling.. you will get pulled up if you try and work a flanker!

 

Give BH a go. But remember what you are doing is not that easy! In fact it is technically challenging. 

 

You are mixing up fire design, different roof construction and ventilation strategy. 

 

1 hour ago, Jammy5 said:

I paid for an architect, they don't even respond to my messages or calls anymore so I'm kind of stuck.

 

Look at it this way.. you have got so far in the design process, recognised that there is a design fit up and insulation / ventilation / fire compatibility and you are dealing with it by coming on Build Hub. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ETC]

[Gus Potter]

49 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

excuse Gus, he's old and grumpy, but is well intentioned. As am I....well, old-ish.

Fair point! But we both wear our hearts on our shirt pocket!

 

25 minutes ago, Jammy5 said:

Thanks for the understanding. I'll grab the details tomorrow and post them on here with any personal details removed.

Yes do that. I'll chip in when I get the chance as others will do. 

 

What you will find is that we on BH are like a family.. we don't always agree!. Your job is to distill the info you get, rule stuff in or out and make an informed judgment. 

 

Once you do this then you are well on your way! Some, maybe me, will give you tips on how to bring your Architect to the table, hopefully that will not need to happen.

 

 

 

 

[Jammy5]

17 minutes ago, Gus Potter said:

It will take you a bit of time but you can just post them on this thread. 

 

If you feel you have made a mistake, just ask the MODS to help you, they are great! If you accidentally post confidential stuff they will remove it. I think there is a Mod on duty pretty much all the time. 

 

The main thing to recognise is that BH folk are not going to jump down your throat, you are not going to get pulled up on your spelling.. you will get pulled up if you try and work a flanker!

 

Give BH a go. But remember what you are doing is not that easy! In fact it is technically challenging. 

 

You are mixing up fire design, different roof construction and ventilation strategy. 

 

 

Look at it this way.. you have got so far in the design process, recognised that there is a design fit up and insulation / ventilation / fire compatibility and you are dealing with it by coming on Build Hub. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you for the encouraging words. My next challenge is VCL and Air tightness in the second floor and above the garage. This is my next battle and I will certainly need some help with this..... I bet it's the simplest thing ever if you've done it before. It's knowing exactly what to do and in what order.

 

What I'm trying to avoid is doing something, and having to go back to rectify it a huge cost later on. I'll be honest, I'm at the stage where I wish I had just contracted the full build out.

[Jammy5]

18 minutes ago, ETC said:

Thank you this is crystal clear.

 

I guess it's an issue I can't avoid now but the height of my window openings are 1220mm, therefore I can only get 1 run out of a 2.4m closer. Hence the much higher cost than anticipated.

 

I was considering the calcium silicate board as it looked to be available in bigger boards but the other side I'm fighting with is the SAP calculation. My SAP guys wants me to follow the recognised construction details and for this it's demanding a barrier that achieves 0.026W/mK.

 

Here's the link to the details:

mpf-150-e3-01-cill_-proprietary-insultated-closer.pdf https://share.google/HmekAly15xvNh65mD

 

Unfortunately looking at the calcium silicate board it's 0.15-0.17W/mK.

 

The Timloc's are what I had looked at but they say they can't be joined. It's a nightmare.

 

[Gus Potter]

41 minutes ago, Jammy5 said:

My next challenge is VCL and Air tightness in the second floor and above the garage.

No, your next challenge is to completely review your design!

 

You are going to find yourself in a pile of manure! That is ok if you have plenty money and a bit more when you have to explain to your other half how you completely blew it!

 

 

Edited 19 hours ago by Gus Potter

[Gus Potter]

Ok I get you feel that I'm not supporting the method you are adopting. That is ok.

 

You are asking for a bit of support on your project. My language is maybe not what you are used to. It's blunt and straight to the point. The main reason is that it's your money! I'm chipping in here as I think what happens if I end up representing you! 

 

But why should you be used to this?.. the building trade has it's own language, contracts and weird way of working.

 

I've explained how you can get help on BH for free.

 

But ask yourself this..

 

I use my own name on BH.. do you think I'm trying to undermine you or maybe I'm just giving you a bit of professional tough love. I don't know you from Adam! It is unlikely you will be ever be a Client of mine! 

 

I post probono, with 40 years experience. If you don't like what I'm saying.. well that is up to you.. it's your money after all. But rest assured.. from what you have posted you have a desing chalenge ahead. Make it too hard and it won't get built as designed.. the builder will walk away with your money! In that process you will get stressed out mentally, that comes at a cost.

 

You mention you have trouble with Architect communication.. ok.. but as an SE / Designer that is not where we start from. We start by reviewing the design and your Architects brief, see what you have paid for and what has been delivered.

 

If that is a bit off then do we say.. well the Architect has cocked up a bit.. it might be your fault as you only paid for a rough design or maybe the Architect is shite! Yes there are some, as are SE's floating about!

 

But at the end of the day you want to get the thing built properly, you also need to come up with a design that is buildable and cost viable. 

 

 

 

[Jammy5]

Not at all, I was chuckling at your comment about needing money and explaining to my other half.

 

The build is way more expensive than I ever could have imagined. I won't even break even,  I'm expecting £540k on a £500k property but it is what it is.

 

First things first as you say @Gus Potter, I need you guys to tell me where the big problems are and we go from there. One step at a time. Let me get these plans redacted and posted 

[Jammy5]

Good morning all,

 

Please find attached the:-

• Architects drawings (JM 1A-JM 1C) 
• Structural Drawing - Drawing 05-8876 01-02 mod B
• SAP Calc

Hopefully I've caught all of the information when I've redacted.

 

Important changes to note:-

1. Structural Drawing shows a Girder Truss at the front. This was misinterpreted by the structural engineer. He has since confirmed that using extra heavy duty lintels above the two bedroom windows is acceptable with the current roof truss design.
2. The two small Bi-Folds have been replaced with one singular 6m long Bi-Fold. This is reflected in the structural drawing but not on the architectural drawings. This has been agreed with BCO. SAP person is also on board and he believes some additional insulated plasterboard will compensate for the reduced cavity and insulation on the ground floor, rear elevation.

The main part I struggle with is the conflict with the information contained within the SAP calc and that shown on the Architects drawings.

Especially once I start following the recognised construction details that I need to achieve for the SAP calc (see link below for part fill insulation in the masonry cavity wall:-

 

https://www.recognisedconstructiondetails.co.uk/walls/masonry-cavity-wall-partial-fill-insulation#

• Step 1 - 100mm Insulation (except on the rear ground floor, where it is 50mm)
• Step 2 - 0.022 W/mK
• Step 3 - 0.60 W/mK (Although I'm slightly better than this)

 

Edit:- I should have explained my current build position:-

• Drainage all installed including attenuation tank in rear garden for surface water.
• All block/brickwork completed.
• 22mm flooring installed on 1st Floor.
• Roof completed with integrated solar panels & Soffit/Fascia.
• External cladding being installed on Dormers this week.

 

Thanks in advance for this.

 

Jamie

 

drawing 05-8876 01-02 mod B.pdf JM 1A.pdf JM 1B.pdf JM 1C.pdf SAP 10 - Client Declaration of Agreed Construction Form Rev 0.pdf

Edited 8 hours ago by Jammy5
Current build position added

[Jammy5]

I will also be installing MVHR and UFH on the ground floor. Whilst these aren't identified in the SAP calc, I've now made them aware of this change

[Nickfromwales]

14 hours ago, Jammy5 said:

Just so I'm clear, I'll check my contract with them tomorrow and specifically scope.

 

Out of curiosity, for someone to act as the architect during the build stage, what is a general finger in the air fee?

 

Or is this part and parcel of the support they should provide in completing building regulations drawings and consultation during this phase. As in the designer being on hand to answer TQ's?

They have to underwrite everything done to date, and even if dismissed will be liable if anything was ‘duff’. 
 

What support do you think you’ll need going forward? A good architectural technician can support if it’s just to provide sections, eg organic works in isolation.

 

Have you had b regs drawings done by the current architect? 

 

 

[saveasteading]

I've had the briefest of looks at two drawings.

It seems to me that this is useful in showing all the geometry but leaves all detailing to others, prob esp the builder.

There is generous use of terms like 'as necessary' or 'in accordance with'... etc.  these annotations are probably cut and pasted on all similar designs, maybe even auto generated.

 

Without seeing your contracts with architectural designer, SE , builder to see where responsibilities lie, or if there are gaps etc I can't say much more.

 

When details like your question arise, and excuse me if you have answered already, it should be the experts that deal with it, but you appear to assume you have responsibility.

So I'm guessing that the architecture was for an overview and no detailing. If so then you are relying on the builder whose brief is... what exactly? 

[Jammy5]

2 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

They have to underwrite everything done to date, and even if dismissed will be liable if anything was ‘duff’. 
 

What support do you think you’ll need going forward? A good architectural technician can support if it’s just to provide sections, eg organic works in isolation.

 

Have you had b regs drawings done by the current architect? 

 

 

Sorry I've been down tidying the site.

 

Those are the drawings that were submitted for building regs approval and yes they were done by the current architect.

 

I just need someone to advise where it's "shoddy", what needs resolved now and then specific details going forward for interpretation and how it is done in practice.

 

Keeping an eye on the tradespeople or at least issuing them clear instructions on the details would also be good.

[Jammy5]

1 hour ago, saveasteading said:

I've had the briefest of looks at two drawings.

It seems to me that this is useful in showing all the geometry but leaves all detailing to others, prob esp the builder.

There is generous use of terms like 'as necessary' or 'in accordance with'... etc.  these annotations are probably cut and pasted on all similar designs, maybe even auto generated.

 

Without seeing your contracts with architectural designer, SE , builder to see where responsibilities lie, or if there are gaps etc I can't say much more.

 

When details like your question arise, and excuse me if you have answered already, it should be the experts that deal with it, but you appear to assume you have responsibility.

So I'm guessing that the architecture was for an overview and no detailing. If so then you are relying on the builder whose brief is... what exactly? 

 

I have assumed I have the responsibility. The issue is, and maybe this is the biggest lesson of all. I've tried to split the works rather than just give the builder the primary contract and let them build from there. Someone who is used the building new build houses to the new standards.

 

And this is where I come unstuck, the scope is to do the building work as per the drawings and recognised construction details.

 

[Nickfromwales]

1 minute ago, Jammy5 said:

Sorry I've been down tidying the site.

 

Those are the drawings that were submitted for building regs approval and yes they were done by the current architect.

Haven't looked at them yet sorry. Been an a few sporadic meetings already today, plus a few extra 'life associated bits' fell out of the sky; oldest son's Golf just decided to puke every drop of engine oil out in the university car park, so now I'm off to tow that to his mates unit and throw it on the ramp..........then he will say how many £££££ to fix the fecking thing. Usual Sunday.......should have stayed asleep ffs.

 

Anyhoo...

 

So, if you've paid up, and they've done the GA's and b regs drawings etc, then they're pretty much at the end of their works as far as you (and they) are concerned? The issue is now that the stuff they've produced isn't 'very good' or is it completely lacking in useable information for the builders or trades or yourself to take reference from?

[Nickfromwales]

19 minutes ago, Jammy5 said:

Keeping an eye on the tradespeople or at least issuing them clear instructions on the details would also be good.

This is a PM position, not an architect, unless they have stated in their contract that they will PM the trades for you. Usually this is so eye-wateringly expensive, very few ever go this route.

 

Architects are also very good at drawing houses, but are often not so dapper at building them.

[saveasteading]

18 minutes ago, Jammy5 said:

And this is where I come unstuck, the scope is to do the building work as per the drawings and recognised construction details.

Looking on the positive side then. You presumably got the drawings done for a few hundred. ditto the SE who did some calculations but not site detailing. Then the builder or trades are not project managing so have not added costs for this or for any risks. So you should have saved a lot of money towards  whatever comes up.

 

It's a commercial decision that you have taken, Some things will be required that you had not foreseen, or were even aware of.

The building inspector is not your designer so will be seen as the nasty ogre who says no.  You must research thoroughly and its a good plan to chat it through with the builder but do lots of reading up as well.

 

Here on BH we can advise on the principles but not take any responsibility, nor spend much time considering all aspects.... and we may be wrong.

eg I'm not opening the drawings and spending time studying them ... that's what you pay designers for.

 

So get reading and sketching and BH may help with simpler questions.

[ETC]

Q:

Are these all the drawings?

Have you got BC plan approval?

Is your garage heated?

[ETC]

Had a look at your drawings - to be honest not great. Drawings look OK but the notes are - IMO - poor especially for a self- builder.

I don’t see a heat detector/alarm in either in the Kitchen or Utility Room. Nor do I see smoke detectors in any of the Bedrooms - are they needed in England? I’m outside your jurisdiction and we need them here where I am.

I presume your fire doors will have self-closers?

[Jammy5]

1 hour ago, ETC said:

Q:

Are these all the drawings?

Have you got BC plan approval?

Is your garage heated?

These are all of the drawings and were the drawings used to obtain Building Control plan approval.

 

The garage isn't heated and is classed as a cold space from my understanding? What are you thinking here?

Edited 1 hour ago by Jammy5

[Jammy5]

14 minutes ago, ETC said:

Had a look at your drawings - to be honest not great. Drawings look OK but the notes are - IMO - poor especially for a self- builder.

I don’t see a heat detector/alarm in either in the Kitchen or Utility Room. Nor do I see smoke detectors in any of the Bedrooms - are they needed in England? I’m outside your jurisdiction and we need them here where I am.

I presume your fire doors will have self-closers?

 

There's a note in the top right corner of drawing 3/3 that says in the circulation space on all levels (having read up I'm of the understanding this is the hall/landing etc). In addition, I will be placing heat detectors in the kitchen, utility room and garage as well for what it costs.

 

Fire doors to each habitable room with intumescent strip which I'll be placing in the casings and I'll be putting the fire rated self closing hinges on them.

The garage door is a bit different and specified with mechanical self closer, intumescent strips and smoke seals.

 

[ETC]

27 minutes ago, Jammy5 said:

These are all of the drawings and were the drawings used to obtain Building Control plan approval.

 

The garage isn't heated and is classed as a cold space from my understanding? What are you thinking here?

Thinking how you insulate the garage walls.

You will need self-closers on the fire-doors.

Edited 1 hour ago by ETC