Boiling water tap - Quooker alternatives

[Russdl]

Actually, I should have done the above myself. I wonder why I didn’t 🤔

 

I think it may be because I knew about water softeners and knew I would need one and then at a later date discovered the Combimate by which time the softener was firmly fixed in my plan and I lacked the bandwidth to rethink everything. 

[Russdl]

3 minutes ago, canalsiderenovation said:

I was looking at Combimate and just to understand any similar products are these the same

Certainly looks to be, that may be just what you’re after, and cheaper than the Combimate 👍🏻 
 

If you install a water softener, over time it will remove the limescale that will already have built up in your system, my guess would be that a phosphate dosing water conditioner will not however I suspect that will not be a big issue for you now the Quooker has been descaled. 

[canalsiderenovation]

10 minutes ago, Russdl said:

Certainly looks to be, that may be just what you’re after, and cheaper than the Combimate 👍🏻 
 

If you install a water softener, over time it will remove the limescale that will already have built up in your system, my guess would be that a phosphate dosing water conditioner will not however I suspect that will not be a big issue for you now the Quooker has been descaled. 

 

Yes we only had it descaled 2 weeks ago! I'll see what Wrekin water say,  I've also messaged Combimate too. I'm not disregarding a softener completely alongside something like the Combimate or an equivalent (and if the one from Wrekin does the same job as a Combimate I'm tempted to go with them as they are 10 mins away so any issues we have them nearby). As you say, maybe get something like this fitted first and see if it has any impact rather than get a softener and a Combimate (or equivalent) right away. 

[Russdl]

That all sounds like a top plan to me. Let us know how it goes. 

[Gone West]

20 hours ago, canalsiderenovation said:

The Eco 15 Ultra eco version

When we were living in the old bungalow, while we were building our house, our Minimax twin cylinder softener packed up, probably around ten years ago. We thought we would try an electric softener as they were a fair bit cheaper, and we bought the Eco15 from Wrekin. It did work ok, but unfortunately the built in timer didn't remember the settings if there was a power cut. As a result it sometimes did a regeneration cycle during the day. It also wouldn't take salt blocks so we had to use salt pellets. When we moved into the new house we decided to go back to a twin cylinder and I fitted a Harvey Crown Softener. This was some time ago, so models have probably changed.

[canalsiderenovation]

2 hours ago, Gone West said:

When we were living in the old bungalow, while we were building our house, our Minimax twin cylinder softener packed up, probably around ten years ago. We thought we would try an electric softener as they were a fair bit cheaper, and we bought the Eco15 from Wrekin. It did work ok, but unfortunately the built in timer didn't remember the settings if there was a power cut. As a result it sometimes did a regeneration cycle during the day. It also wouldn't take salt blocks so we had to use salt pellets. When we moved into the new house we decided to go back to a twin cylinder and I fitted a Harvey Crown Softener. This was some time ago, so models have probably changed.

 

Yes he did mention it not remembering the settings in the event of a power cut and that if I wanted it to do the regeneration cycle at a specific time e.g. during Octopus cheap rate (say 4am) rather than it's standard 2am cycle I'd need to trick it to think the time was 2 hours later than it was by setting the clock for 2 hours later. We also suffer frequently with power cuts which is why I was tempted to go for the non electric one.

 

I think we are going to look into Combimate or the Wrekin equivalent first and see if this has any impact on limescale before going down the softener route. Whilst soft water, using less detergent etc would be great my main gripe is limescale and it's a bit of a faff trying keep the cold water feed hard in our kitchen to then have to fit a separate device on it anyway. If we try it for a while without success then we can explore the softeners.

Edited Thursday at 09:42 by canalsiderenovation

[Gone West]

1 hour ago, canalsiderenovation said:

it's a bit of a faff trying keep the cold water feed hard in our kitchen

Yes we had a three way kitchen tap so we could have hard water for drinking and soft for everything else, but because the water tasted strange we had to have another filter just for drinking water.

 

[canalsiderenovation]

3 minutes ago, Gone West said:

Yes we had a three way kitchen tap so we could have hard water for drinking and soft for everything else, but because the water tasted strange we had to have another filter just for drinking water.

 

 

Yep we would have to have another filter on the kitchen tap to prevent limescale in the Quooker tank/tap which is a major pain but make it safe to drink which is why I'm going down the Combimate/similar first for whole house to see if that helps.

[canalsiderenovation]

Any thoughts on these two options? This is the reply from Wrekin.

 

With regards to polyphosphate, It is a scale conditioner, not a softener. It doesn't remove the calcium, instead, the polyphosphate dissolves slowly to coat the calcium to change its format, so it adds the polyphosphate to your water by coating the calcium, it is food grade and usually comes from fish oils. Calcium, looks like a Jaggard snowflake underneath a microscope, and when heated, sticks together like a jigsaw puzzle causing limescale build up. Poly phosphate coats the calcium into a ball shape, so it bounces off each other when heated and slows the process of build up down. It won't help with your skin, but it should help against your taps, toilets and showers. With your quooker, I am unsure how they work, but I am sure they have like a boiler, which constantly heats water? In which case, if you re-boil the water over and over, the calcium in the water will revert back to its original state of the snowflake shape and may cause limescale build up.

 

Poly phosphate is a slow dissolving material, so the items on our website should be ok for whole house, but we would need to check your flow rates. You will also require an annual service and fresh or a top up of poly phosphate - We sell ours in refill packs so you can empty the cartridge in to a sieve, rinse and rid of any build up, and put it back into the cartridge, topping up when necessary and reinstalling. Other Poly Phosphate systems have cartridges that don't open, but you need to change instead on an annual basis, which encourages unnecessary waste and expense.

 

If you are looking for a scale conditioner, I would actually recommend our life science Sentry. This is an electric device, but the beauty of it, it does not require any plumbing or servicing! Just a 3 pin socket. It pulsates small pulses through the pipe so that the calcium changes into a ball shape. If you ever move, you can take it with you. Would also save the costs of a plumber and any messing of the pipework, so might be a better option for you? This is a one off cost with no servicing required. The manufacturer suggests a 15-20 year life approximately and I think it costs less than £5 electric a year - which would be cheaper than a service on polyphosphate.

 

Again, if you are re-boiling water over and over, it can reverse the affect and revert back to a jigsaw shape, but that's the same with any scale conditioner. Again, it won't help your skin, but will help the toilets taps etc. Some of our customers try the sentry first (as it is a one off cost) and see how they get on. Because there is no plumbing involved, if in a year they change there minds, there is no additional plumbing work in removing plumbed in systems, which can add to the labour cost.

 

Both the polyphosphate and sentry achieve the same thing, but in different methods.

 

With both the polyphosphate and the sentry, you will still have calcium in the water, so you will notice scale in the kettle, but it should be in a powder form and should be far easier to clean as the calcium is treated, its easier to wipe away.

 

Any calcium in the water, treated or untreated, can dry your skin as it is an irritant.

 

The only way to remove calcium from your water supply and stop any future calcium build up, is with a water softener. (That does require salt - anything that doesn't require salt is a conditioner not a softener) Water Softeners also remove existing build up over time too.

 

Poly Phosphate: https://wrekinwatertreatment.co.uk/products/vih10-bl-pp-scale-inhibitor-refillable-whole-house-system-10in?_pos=4&_psq=pP&_ss=e&_v=1.0

 

Sentry: https://wrekinwatertreatment.co.uk/products/water-king-sentry-scale-conditioner?_pos=1&_psq=sentry&_ss=e&_v=1.0

 

We have the Polyphosphate and the Sentry's in stock, if you would like to order one of those instead of having a softener installed?

 

[-rick-]

That's probably the best explanation of the difference between the two that I've seen. Good on Wrekin.

 

Given your motivation for looking at this is keeping the Quooker in good shape, maybe the best thing to do is ask them what they recommend? I've always thought of the electric ones as a bit snake-oily. Someone here posted an option for something claimed to work in the conditioner way as above using a catalysing reaction. Can't remember where but that might be another option.

 

Ultimately, you need to pick something to try so my thought is go with whatever Quooker think is better or follow the recommendations from @Russdl here as he has the direct experience of a successful solution.

 

One thing I should mention: while looking at this the other day out of curiosity one of my google results mentioned how its not recommended to drink salt-softened water if on a low sodium diet but equally not recommended to use phosphate conditioned ones if you have liver or kidney issues (one or other can't rememeber which). Worth bearing in mind.

[canalsiderenovation]

25 minutes ago, -rick- said:

Given your motivation for looking at this is keeping the Quooker in good shape, maybe the best thing to do is ask them what they recommend? I've always thought of the electric ones as a bit snake-oily. Someone here posted an option for something claimed to work in the conditioner way as above using a catalysing reaction. Can't remember where but that might be another option.

 

Ultimately, you need to pick something to try so my thought is go with whatever Quooker think is better or follow the recommendations from @Russdl here as he has the direct experience of a successful solution.

 

One thing I should mention: while looking at this the other day out of curiosity one of my google results mentioned how its not recommended to drink salt-softened water if on a low sodium diet but equally not recommended to use phosphate conditioned ones if you have liver or kidney issues (one or other can't rememeber which). Worth bearing in mind.

 

I think we may just try the Sentry as an easy option to see how we get on and then if it doesn't work we can explore other options. I'm worried adding things to water if it may impact things like people on low sodium diets and we would have to tell our Airbnb guests staying with us!

 

I've seen a seller Ebay https://ebay.us/m/wAecMl and I'm tempted to just get 2 and fit one on our cold water entry in the utility and another on the Quooker as an additional backup (the cold feed doesn't come in the kitchen but I guess it wouldn't do any harm fitting another).

 

If it doesn't work then we will have to go back to the drawing board.

 

To get a cold 'hard feed into our kitchen Wrekin said their plumber would charge at least £500 and would involve quite a bit of work and drilling walls which I really don't want to do.

Edited Friday at 15:12 by canalsiderenovation

[Gone West]

22 minutes ago, canalsiderenovation said:

If it doesn't work then we will have to go back to the drawing board.

We tried an electronic water conditioner back in the late nineties as we had very hard water. It didn't work so the suppliers swapped it for a commercial version and that didn't work either. After that it turned into the beginning of using proper softeners, which were the twin cylinder type, and that lasted all the time we lived in East Kent. Now we are really lucky and don't need a softener.

[canalsiderenovation]

3 hours ago, Gone West said:

We tried an electronic water conditioner back in the late nineties as we had very hard water. It didn't work so the suppliers swapped it for a commercial version and that didn't work either. After that it turned into the beginning of using proper softeners, which were the twin cylinder type, and that lasted all the time we lived in East Kent. Now we are really lucky and don't need a softener.

Thanks, thats good to know. I'll try the cheap Ebay one with low expectations!