Do I need a PM if I'm engaging a main contractor?

[Indy]

Been working with 2-3 builders to get prices for our build based off the Construction drawings/BR submissions. Did not go down the QS route and getting a BoQ (unpriced) for a formal tender process - as it's a one off new build and probably too small a job to be tendered like that. In discussion with all of them, they've hinted/implied that the price we're working to is based on not having a QS engaged as it means more effort for them / and more money for me - i.e. if they have to demonstrate and argue the toss at each stage payment so they would have to build in some fat into the contract if we choose to go down that route.

 

We're engaging the builder/contractor for a full turnkey finish, so they will have their own site manager/project manager assigned to the project (which I'm already paying for). 

 

Do I need to also engage a separate PM that visits the site once every fortnight and work with the builder to manage the stage payments? Not sure how much this would be but it seems like an added cost and is that something I'd be able to take on myself? How have others managed it on their builds?

[Benpointer]

I think it depends on your personal confidence, skill set and time availability but personally I wouldn't spend money on a separate PM.  Find a builder you feel you can trust - not always easy but personal recommendations, ask to speak to some reference customers,  etc. - and keep in close and regular contact with them.

 

[nod]

100% NO

You would be paying for the same service twice 

[Nickfromwales]

If you don’t do a BOQ (fully populated) then how are you going to construct a contract and to what parameters will the builder be bound by in its absence? 
 

Im doing a full QS / BOQ for every new build client as it forms the backbone of our arrangement; without it you’re just time and materials unless the ‘builder’ has given you chapter & verse in a fully itemised quotation with a pragmatic variation order agreement for additions and alterations.

 

A MC isn’t duty bound to share costs with you, or go out to tender, they’d just say “it’s £750k to make that house you’ve just asked for” and they’d get the cheapest materials installed as cost-effectively as possible to maximise profit vs budget.

 

I do open book MC / PC so the client sees all costs from 3rd party BFSC’s, and the PM costs are shown in ‘preliminary’s’ in the BOQ.

 

Stage payments have any ambiguity removed via a full (correct) process, as the deliverables are all measured and pre-agreed; if they’ve not done 100% of stage 1 works then they don’t get that sum of money, only the % done.

 

What about a retainer?

 

How do you know what your budget is? And to clarify, your budget is how much it will cost, in absolute total, to build the aforementioned dwelling to the required standard, not what you have in the bank at the time . So many folk go over budget and time, as they’ve jumped in feet first with a blindfold on costs…..just crazy imo.  

[saveasteading]

@Indy you don't know what you don't know....yet.

ie there are risks beyond your imagination. 

I suggest you accept that there is a cost for reducing these. 10% to 20%?

That can be an industry professional to assist you, or an established builder with a good reputation and history.. 

Either has a cost to you, in fees or overheads.

[Indy]

So mixed responses here. I agree (in my head at least) that it seems to be duplicating a bit of cost. 

 

However, I do also fully recognise my limitations - in a sense, even if I'm directly staring at some work that a builder/brickie/electrician/plumber would have done, I'd have no way to tell if it was good or not based on a visual inspection. I'd be relying solely on the word of the main contractor. 

 

I've done a lot of sifting through and found what I think are people that are trustworthy and people I can get on with - however, I'm not sure how much I can take anyone on their word. As my architect reminded me, everyone in this business is a shark and if they can find a way to charge you £500 for £50 worth of work, they will!

 

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, Indy said:

everyone in this business is a shark

Is there  a Grrrr/ annoyed icon?

That is very unfair and reflects badly on the architect. 

Perhaps that's how he thinks and works, so assumes everyone is the same, or he hasn't the knowledge to discuss costs. after all the client pays it all so he isn't bothered.

 

As a contractor I was always pleased to have zero extras.  Partly as pride, and partly because a client can have no perception of being overcharged.

It helps towards repeat business too.

Also though because  changes are a pain. They have to be recorded and clarified formally , then drawings and schedules altered and circulated.

Then the cost difference has to be calculated, and there is always some increased risk.

If only clients didn't change their minds.

[Benpointer]

5 hours ago, saveasteading said:

Is there  a Grrrr/ annoyed icon?

That is very unfair and reflects badly on the architect. 

Perhaps that's how he thinks and works, so assumes everyone is the same, or he hasn't the knowledge to discuss costs. after all the client pays it all so he isn't bothered.

 

As a contractor I was always pleased to have zero extras.  Partly as pride, and partly because a client can have no perception of being overcharged.

It helps towards repeat business too.

Also though because  changes are a pain. They have to be recorded and clarified formally , then drawings and schedules altered and circulated.

Then the cost difference has to be calculated, and there is always some increased risk.

If only clients didn't change their minds.

Most contractors are honest and decent in my experience; but some are a bit 'fly', and a few are utter ars*h*les.   A bit like people generally, really.

[Indy]

2 hours ago, Benpointer said:

Most contractors are honest and decent in my experience; but some are a bit 'fly', and a few are utter ars*h*les.   A bit like people generally, really.

 

Agreed. The hard part is how do you find out before you engage which one is honest and decent against which one is an shyster. Unless you plan for worst case scenario and cover the eventuality that all of them are shysters - thus leading me back to his statement (and adding increased cost).

[Mike]

9 hours ago, Indy said:

As my architect reminded me

Your architect may offer a site monitoring service, though probably not at the level of checking all the work in detail. For that, on large contracts, a Clerk of Works would traditionally have been employed; there are still some around (I hear that the numbers are growing again) and you might find one who would provide a visiting service.

 

But, as indicated above, most people tend to rely on their contractor.