Manifold has no isolation valves

[joeirish]

I've not been here for a few years cos everything's been fine. But now I have a return of an old problem and with plumbers here in Co. Clare been rarer than hens teeth I'm trying to sort this myself. Our manifold has no isolation valves. One of the pin valves needs replacing but I don't know how to do this without isolation valves. So my thoughts are to install isolation valves etc so that I can do do any future work myself. Attached is a photo of my manifold. Any help appreciated. Thanks Joe 

[ProDave]

One of the plumbers will advise I am sure but if you could take another photo with the pipe insulation removed they will see what joins to what more clearly.

 

You have an interesting mixture of actuators. I assume as a result of failures and replacements?

[joeirish]

Thanks for the quick reply. Here's another photo with the insulation removed. The whole manifold etc is connected to the flow and return from the oil boiler. The pipes continue up to the thermal store. Essentially the system is installed so that there is no separation between the ufh part and the heating circuit from the boiler to the thermal store. I realise that there is probably a better design but I'm where I am unfortunately. And it has worked for the past ten years except for the occasional pin valve failure.

Edited March 25 by joeirish

[Nickfromwales]

That’s tight as hell, so the only way you’ll get that isolated is to put a pair of 1/4 turns above and another pair below, and don’t even contemplate altering the pipework attached to the UFH, “operation can-of-worms!”.

 

 

You may have to use standard gate valves if 1/4 turns won’t swing, but ideally you’ll want full bore hence my mention of lever (ball) valves as the preferential ones. You can unbolt the levers if necessary, eg on the lower inner one where it’s getting tight. 

[joeirish]

  On 25/03/2025 at 16:25, Nickfromwales said:

That’s tight as hell, so the only way you’ll get that isolated is to put a pair of 1/4 turns above and another pair below, and don’t even contemplate altering the pipework attached to the UFH, “operation can-of-worms!”.

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Thanks for that. 1/4 turns? Do you mean something like in the attached photo? And would I need some sort of drain down valves on the manifold also (youtube suggested this to de pressurise the manifold once its isolated and to remove air once it's re pressurised).

[joeirish]

Got it. Our posts crossed.

Edited March 25 by joeirish

[marshian]

I think @Nickfromwales meant this style

 

[joeirish]

Thanks. I understand now.

[marshian]

  On 25/03/2025 at 16:43, joeirish said:

Thanks. I understand now.

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Just make sure that they are suitable for the flow temps and that they don't introduce any restriction to flow

 

Isolator valves like the "screw driver" type isolation valves can be incredibly restrictive hence the need for "full bore" type

[Nickfromwales]

 

Use decent quality ones so they don’t leak! Pegler are v good for the money. 

[Nickfromwales]

Whatever size the pipes are obvs!

[joeirish]

Nick thanks again. What i had been wondering was if I could insert isolation valves where I indicated in the attached. It would mean moving the whole shebang a bit to the right and I'm not sure if there is enought spare UFH pipe for that?  There is one unused connection for an extra ufh loop (visible third from right) that I wondered if this could be utilised to help with moving it all rightwards?

[marshian]

  On 25/03/2025 at 16:56, joeirish said:

Nick thanks again. What i had been wondering was if I could insert isolation valves where I indicated in the attached. It would mean moving the whole shebang a bit to the right and I'm not sure if there is enought spare UFH pipe for that?  There is one unused connection for an extra ufh loop (visible third from right) that I wondered if this could be utilised to help with moving it all rightwards?

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I wouldn't be trying that - lets see if @Nickfromwales agrees

[joeirish]

  On 25/03/2025 at 15:58, ProDave said:

One of the plumbers will advise I am sure but if you could take another photo with the pipe insulation removed they will see what joins to what more clearly.

 

You have an interesting mixture of actuators. I assume as a result of failures and replacements?

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Yes the mix is because I had a few pin valve failures and the rust buildup under the actuators meant that some had to be replaced. Mostly good now except for a couple of recent failures. No idea why these pin valves have failed but plenty of inhibitor in the system these days so maybe not enough originally.

[Nickfromwales]

  On 25/03/2025 at 16:56, joeirish said:

Nick thanks again. What i had been wondering was if I could insert isolation valves where I indicated in the attached. It would mean moving the whole shebang a bit to the right and I'm not sure if there is enought spare UFH pipe for that?  There is one unused connection for an extra ufh loop (visible third from right) that I wondered if this could be utilised to help with moving it all rightwards?

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That would be a brave move, plus would see the isolations behind the copper pipes?

Disturbing that lot will need confidence and competence, so your call matey!

 

Anything can be done, but my option is of course reliant on you being able to lift the pipes vertically around 30-40mm. 
 

 

These can be used if there’s zero movement above or below, or you go “gigantic ball’s” and do as you suggest.

 

Better to wait until May the 4th to do it. 🙏

[Nickfromwales]

  On 25/03/2025 at 16:59, joeirish said:

Yes the mix is because I had a few pin valve failures and the rust buildup under the actuators meant that some had to be replaced. Mostly good now except for a couple of recent failures. No idea why these pin valves have failed but plenty of inhibitor in the system these days so maybe not enough originally.

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Have you got a magnetic filter in the return pipework at the boiler? 

[joeirish]

I don't. I was only thinking yesterday that maybe I need some sort of filter. Recommendations?

[joeirish]

  On 25/03/2025 at 17:02, Nickfromwales said:

That would be a brave move, plus would see the isolations behind the copper pipes?

Disturbing that lot will need confidence and competence, so your call matey!

 

Anything can be done, but my option is of course reliant on you being able to lift the pipes vertically around 30-40mm. 
 

 

These can be used if there’s zero movement above or below, or you go “gigantic ball’s” and do as you suggest.

 

Better to wait until May the 4th to do it. 🙏

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So why wait until May 4th?

 

Regarding you initial suggestion I was thinking that I'd just cut sections out of the existing pipes and insert the four valves so to speak?

 

My idea of moving the manifold right would mean new isolation valves would be inserted where I drew the red circles on the photo so they wouldn't be behind the copper pipes. Maybe I misunderstood what your thinking is?

 

[marshian]

  On 25/03/2025 at 17:22, joeirish said:

So why wait until May 4th?

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star wars reference - to you might need some serious jedi skills if you disturb that rats nest of pipework

[marshian]

  On 25/03/2025 at 17:22, joeirish said:

Regarding you initial suggestion I was thinking that I'd just cut sections out of the existing pipes and insert the four valves so to speak?

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Top tip once you know what size copper pipe it is and you buy 4 suitable 1/4 turn full borr isolators - use two bits of pipe in one of the isolators to determine the length of cut section you need to remove 

 

always better than cutting out too much 😉

[joeirish]

I'll probably get a proper plumber to put in the new isolators. It'll likely mean some level of draining of the system before any pipes are cut. I'm sure that I'll have a few more questions before it's finished. Thanks guys for the advice so far.

[joeirish]

Some more photos of my setup and some questions.

The photos show a close up of how the flow and return pipes from the boiler are connected to the manifold. Soldered connection at the pipe and compression connection at the manifold.

Would it be possible to take these two sections off and install the 1/4 turn valves on these then reattach everything? Thanks.

[JohnMo]

They are press fit fittings, so not easy to take apart without a hacksaw or cutting out the pipe sections.

 

Also the distance between the tee and the run to manifold isn't long.

 

You would have to remake the vertical pipes take the tee higher up, come down than add the isolation valve.

 

Something like this.

 

 

 

Then you only need one isolation valve for flow and return. Use something like Tectite sprint fittings, then everything is cold work and pushes together. Link below, most plumber merchants sell them also.

 

https://www.screwfix.com/p/tectite-sprint-copper-push-fit-equal-tee-22mm/7032G?tc=TA5&ds_rl=1241687&ds_rl=1245250&ds_rl=1249404&gad_source=1&ds_rl=1245250&ds_rl=1247848&ds_rl=1248151&gclid=Cj0KCQjwy46_BhDOARIsAIvmcwM042Fd72F7rYXi4vBFnWl6WmTZBopQpoOaI0WniqJ95CUJbFsI1ncaAufZEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds