Taking out a non-supporting wall, does it need a lintel?

[LDNRennovation]

We are removing a wall, it’s breeze block wall and the rafters aren’t being held up by it. We have had builders look at it, one said it needed a concrete lintel, the other didn’t think so.
 

Do you know how I am I supposed to know if it needs one or not?

 

The wall is marked in red. The roof is a hipped roof.

 

I can’t figure out the purpose for why it would need it.

[Big Jimbo]

You need to have a look in the loft and see if any of the ceiling joists, or any part of the roof structure is being supported by that wall.

[LDNRennovation]

Thanks Jimbo! The builder came round to price for works and he didn’t look up there. 
 

it’s not supporting the roof as far as I can tell.

[SteamyTea]

17 hours ago, LDNRennovation said:

The builder came round to price for works and he didn’t look up there

Get a different builder.

[Nickfromwales]

Can you squiggle on that drawing to show us where / which direction the joists run plz?

[LDNRennovation]

It’s a fairly classic hipped roof (I think?) and it looks like it spans the whole way over to me just supporting itself.

 

I agree Steamy! He just wasn’t interested and the concrete lintel would be like 3m long, I did question that - I must have misunderstood because it’s a stupid idea. 

[saveasteading]

19 hours ago, LDNRennovation said:

not supporting the roof as far as I can tell.

If you take out all of that wall, then you have a double door opening. Joists must be sitting on lintels above the doors if not on the wall you want out.

So yes you will need a big lintel.

 

 

Also, although that wall may not  be supporting joists it may be important to the stability of the building in other ways.

This is not to be taken lightly. I think it needs building control at the least. The builders should be advising this.

[LDNRennovation]

1 hour ago, saveasteading said:

If you take out all of that wall, then you have a double door opening. Joists must be sitting on lintels above the doors if not on the wall you want out.

So yes you will need a big lintel.

 

 

Also, although that wall may not  be supporting joists it may be important to the stability of the building in other ways.

This is not to be taken lightly. I think it needs building control at the least. The builders should be advising this.

The one who said we didn’t need a concrete lintel to replace the 3m wall said we can add timber to the rafters to make sure the ceiling doesn’t bow where the wall is missing. 
 

a concrete lintel above the double doors makes sense. Although if we just took the wall out where the double doors would be, I’d be happy with that. Maybe he meant the concrete lintel there.
 

builder did advise building control would be advising I’m just at the quotation stage at the moment. 
 

I’m still not convinced the joists are really supported on the walls, I think the roof is just supported on the external walls. I will get a structural engineer at some point to look, so far he’s seen it on camera only. 

[saveasteading]

1 minute ago, LDNRennovation said:

I will get a structural engineer at some point to look

OK, sounds sensible to look at builders' rough costings first for feasibility.

But allow a contingency for some remedial works, as I'm pretty sure you will need a beam / long lintel over where these 2 doors are, and a pier left on the outer wall, plus bits and pieces that the builders will exclude.

 

 

what does this indicate please? the long red line looks here to be a beam with joists sitting on it., but then a big gap with no joists.

 

[LDNRennovation]

The red lines are the joists, I haven’t drawn all of them on, just over the back of the house. They correspond to the 3d I attached.

 

the smaller ones look like partial trusses for the hip, and the large ones span the whole building from left to right.

 

ah, I don’t really want a pier. Hopefully they can just get rid of the whole internal wall.

 

[saveasteading]

9 minutes ago, LDNRennovation said:

They correspond to the 3d I attached.

OK I see that now. 

Also I now notice that you have shown the retention of the wall at the doors. That will help a lot.

 

If you include a builder of some standing, they may include the Engineer and BCO in a package price, and warranty.

[LDNRennovation]

I’m taking the wall out in between the doors, just to clarify.

good tips Thankyou.

[saveasteading]

If your ceilings are simply screwed up to the trusses, and there are no other joists, then it may indeed be that simple: you have a big empty space subdivided, and the walls are all nonstructural ( and no lintels.)

Should have asked earlier...what is the wall built of?

 

[LDNRennovation]

All the walls are breeze block, it’s a very solid house. That’s why I wasn’t so sure, because in my mind, timber stud is non-supporting and block is supporting.

 

 

[saveasteading]

Generally yes. That's why I m considering that the wall might be contributing stability in some other way.

[torre]

Maybe that wall is needed for mid span support of the last full width truss, given most of the kitchen and dining ceiling joists then hang off that?

[LDNRennovation]

can anyone advise…
 

Our internal renovation doesn’t need planning so there’s no drawings.
 

Do you find the structural engineer yourself, or does the builder usually work with one? Should I find a structural engineer to certify that the wall is not load bearing.

[saveasteading]

39 minutes ago, LDNRennovation said:

does the builder usually work with one? 

An established biggish company might have a close relationship. Small ones unlikely.

You could ask an SE for a site visit and just pay for the time and a quick opinion on the likely scenario.

A written report costs more of course.

Then think again of the best way forward, depending on the situation.

In the ideal scenario there is no structural significance, and then there will be no building regs, and the SE will write to state all that.

 

Otherwise the builder will be guessing.

 

[LDNRennovation]

Aha excellent I’ll find a structural engineer.