Pedestrian Visibility

[Stephen Crowe]

This post does relate to my previous one regarding my local Planning Department..

The question is: Do I have a legal right to demand a Pedestrian Visibility Splay? The highway design regulations state that a 2m x 2m Pedestrian Splay must be installed where my driveway meets the road following the fence line. When my neighbour built his fence all the way down my driveway and completely obscured any visibility of the road, Sevenoaks Planning were told by Kent CC that both a vehicular and pedestrian splay must be adhered to as per the regulations. I have the email from KCC to SDC Planning stating this but SDC decided that they knew better and ignored the ‘Condition for approval’ . Consequently I have my neighbours fence on my land with no visibility of pedestrians when exiting my driveway.. Apparently the Council says I do have visibility, but my X-Ray vision hasn’t kicked in yet!

This has been going on for nearly 4 years now but the Sevenoaks Council refuses to give any explanation for their maladministration and Kent CC refuses to back me up and enforce the regulations even though it is their job to do so! 

[Big Jimbo]

Only a guess, but I thought that the final 1m before the pavement could be no higher than 600mm from ground level ? Your neighbours fence does not go all the way out to the pavement. Is that setback a meter ?

I think it is just a case of creeping out slowly  when exiting your front garden, to give any body on the pavement the chance to see you. not ideal, but your neighbours obviously want privacy in there front garden.

I'm not sure what you are expecting ? Removal of the fence that appears to be entirely on there own land ?

[Big Jimbo]

Just read your other post. If you believe that you own the land that the fence is built on, then prove it. That is what you will be asked by the court, if you decide to take it down. Stop wasting your time with the council , mp's etc. They are not interested. It is actually very hard to prove the exact position of a boundary. So before you do anything, you need to be absolutely sure of that fact. If you are looking at the crappy little map provided by the land registry at a scale of  1. 2500 you are in for a shock. That won't wash with the court. If however you have a decent scale map, with points or origin shown, etc. It might be of use to you.

 

[Big Jimbo]

So my first question to you is. What makes you think that you own the land that this fence has been built upon ?

[Big Jimbo]

And just a final word of caution. I know very well of a case where maps with points of origin, etc, were clearly shown. Each side had an expert witness in court. They had slightly differing opinions. The judge said that as the plans were more than 25 years old, he considered that they were now irrelevant and now out of date. He went and looked at both properties, to see what was actually on the ground. He then decided where the boundary was. My advice would be.....don't go there.

Just take care when exiting your drive...

That fence is the continuation of a wall. Who built the wall ? do you have proof ? when the wall was built are you aware of if it was built. Up to the boundary ? In the middle of the boundary ? On your side of the boundary ? Now prove it..........

[Stephen Crowe]

On 12/03/2025 at 10:07, Big Jimbo said:

Only a guess, but I thought that the final 1m before the pavement could be no higher than 600mm from ground level ? Your neighbours fence does not go all the way out to the pavement. Is that setback a meter ?

I think it is just a case of creeping out slowly  when exiting your front garden, to give any body on the pavement the chance to see you. not ideal, but your neighbours obviously want privacy in there front garden.

I'm not sure what you are expecting ? Removal of the fence that appears to be entirely on there own land ?

A Pedestrian Splay must be 2m x 2m taken from the pavement back. A vehicular splay is take 2.4m back from the road. What I should have ended up with was a dogleg adjacent to the pavement with nothing above 600mm for the last 2 metres. The set back you see is only the Vehicular Splay which steps back less than 600mm back. There should infact be no fence at all on the last 2.5m according to my restrictive Covenants and my neighbours fence has also been built on my land.

[Big Jimbo]

1 minute ago, Stephen Crowe said:

fence has also been built on my land.

As said before.....Can you prove that?

[Stephen Crowe]

On 12/03/2025 at 10:22, Big Jimbo said:

Just read your other post. If you believe that you own the land that the fence is built on, then prove it. That is what you will be asked by the court, if you decide to take it down. Stop wasting your time with the council , mp's etc. They are not interested. It is actually very hard to prove the exact position of a boundary. So before you do anything, you need to be absolutely sure of that fact. If you are looking at the crappy little map provided by the land registry at a scale of  1. 2500 you are in for a shock. That won't wash with the court. If however you have a decent scale map, with points or origin shown, etc. It might be of use to you.

 

I can prove land ownership 100% as dimensions etc are in my transfer document which are part of my deeds. 

[Big Jimbo]

And the dimensions are set from where exactly?

[Big Jimbo]

As the judge says"boundary's move over time.....

[Big Jimbo]

How old is the map ?

[Stephen Crowe]

On 12/03/2025 at 10:37, Big Jimbo said:

And just a final word of caution. I know very well of a case where maps with points of origin, etc, were clearly shown. Each side had an expert witness in court. They had slightly differing opinions. The judge said that as the plans were more than 25 years old, he considered that they were now irrelevant and now out of date. He went and looked at both properties, to see what was actually on the ground. He then decided where the boundary was. My advice would be.....don't go there.

Just take care when exiting your drive...

That fence is the continuation of a wall. Who built the wall ? do you have proof ? when the wall was built are you aware of if it was built. Up to the boundary ? In the middle of the boundary ? On your side of the boundary ? Now prove it..........

I own the land and the entire boundary from the rear of my property to the highway. I had to rebuild part of the wall because my neighbour's landscapers made it unstable and on the point of collapse because they lent fence panels and posts against it which broke the 'back' of an already unstable 50year old wall. Any structure on the boundary is on my land. 

[Stephen Crowe]

7 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said:

And the dimensions are set from where exactly?

I have detailed original drawings from the developers with the plot dimensions, also the plot dimensions of my neighbours plot. I also have copies of the original planning approved drawings for my development which shows the original position of the wall. The wall was and should still be covered by the restrictive covenants on my property. 

[Big Jimbo]

Your neighbour may well have a map showing that the fence is on his land. Have you asked ?

Start a boundary dispute. By the time you come out the other end, it will have cost either you or your neighbour a good £80K

Are you feeling lucky ?

Why do you seem to have such a problem exiting your drive slowly, allowing you to see any bods on the pavement ?

Have you got some personal beef with the neighbour ?

[Big Jimbo]

1 minute ago, Stephen Crowe said:

plot dimensions,

Points of origin ?

[Big Jimbo]

Just now, Big Jimbo said:

Points of origin ?

Without those your map is worthless

[Big Jimbo]

Right. In an effort to actually get somewhere. Answer the following.

When is your map dated ?

Does it have clear points of origin marked, are are they still there, inorder that they can be used to set out today ? (as if there was no house, wall, etc, on site ?

 

[Mr Punter]

As per my previous advice, if the Local Authority don't think it is an issue you will need to take your neighbour to court.

 

If the neighbour's house is oriented at 90 degrees to yours the fence looks like it is protecting the amenity of their rear garden.

 

Either way, this does not look like it stops you safely entering and leaving your driveway.  I would just drop it and move on.

[Stephen Crowe]

1 hour ago, Big Jimbo said:

Right. In an effort to actually get somewhere. Answer the following.

When is your map dated ?

Does it have clear points of origin marked, are are they still there, inorder that they can be used to set out today ? (as if there was no house, wall, etc, on site ?

 

The drawings I have are mine and my neighbours deeds, I also have the 1970 planning approval. Reference points are obviously the house position. I also have photos of the original steel fence post position at least 300mm into my neighbours garden. The original fencing was the centre of the boundary which actually gives me more land than I have. 

[Stephen Crowe]

55 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

As per my previous advice, if the Local Authority don't think it is an issue you will need to take your neighbour to court.

 

If the neighbour's house is oriented at 90 degrees to yours the fence looks like it is protecting the amenity of their rear garden.

 

Either way, this does not look like it stops you safely entering and leaving your driveway.  I would just drop it and move on.

My neighbours new fence actually breaks the restrictive Covenants on both mine and his property as we can only replace a wall with another wall and neither of us are permitted to build anything on our frontage. His new fence is on my frontage. 

[Gus Potter]

You may have some recourse but you'll have to put a lot of reading into this and thought. Be very careful not to lose your shirt over this!

 

1/ There is a gov manual called "designing streets", get that and read.

 

2/ The highways department for your area will have a standard document on visibility displays.  Key points are check the speed limit on the highway and whether each access relied on shared visibilty.. Visibility displays change a lot depending if it is a 30 mph or 20mph!

 

3/ Check to see if there is a covenant put in place by the original developer.  if you living in an estate then often these apply where you can only grow a hedge up to 3 feet high beyond the front line of the principle elevation of the houses. Check to see if the council have the power to override any covenant, sometimes they do.

 

4/ The boundary may be hard to establish.

 

I looks bad and can see how you are less than happy! This could make your life misreable. Would you consider cladding your side in timber to compliment your house and live with the loss of visibility. Often neighbours are not there forever!

 

 

[Stephen Crowe]

8 hours ago, Gus Potter said:

You may have some recourse but you'll have to put a lot of reading into this and thought. Be very careful not to lose your shirt over this!

 

1/ There is a gov manual called "designing streets", get that and read.

 

2/ The highways department for your area will have a standard document on visibility displays.  Key points are check the speed limit on the highway and whether each access relied on shared visibilty.. Visibility displays change a lot depending if it is a 30 mph or 20mph!

 

3/ Check to see if there is a covenant put in place by the original developer.  if you living in an estate then often these apply where you can only grow a hedge up to 3 feet high beyond the front line of the principle elevation of the houses. Check to see if the council have the power to override any covenant, sometimes they do.

 

4/ The boundary may be hard to establish.

 

I looks bad and can see how you are less than happy! This could make your life misreable. Would you consider cladding your side in timber to compliment your house and live with the loss of visibility. Often neighbours are not there forever!

 

 

Kent County Council sent an email to the planning case officer 6 days prior to the approval date. In the email was the drawing of the Pedestrian & Vehicle Splay and the highway officer told the Sevenoaks case officer that the drawing submitted had serious errors and the fence line had to follow the regulations as shown in drawing given by KCC. This regulation had to be a ‘Condition’ of approval or KCC would not approve. 
Someone higher within Planning overrode KCC’s Condition and the planning was approved without the Pedestrian Splay. Even though I was persistent and the Ombudsman decision said that Sevenoaks were in the wrong, they have no powers to force them to do anything. KCC are also on my side and I have an email from the head of highways Simon Jones, stating that the Pedestrian Splay must be adhered to before approval, SDC stated on the Approval that KCC had no objections. An approval is a legal document and SDC lied on it. 
The case officer told me prior to approval that SDC make their decision based on KCC’s Highway advice as that’s not SDC’s job, so what idiot overrode KCC?

The restrictive Covenants are by the original developer and are the same for all our properties. The Covenants do not allow any building on your frontage, my neighbour has built out completely on his front and also on mine. Strangely you can only enforce a Covenant if you own the land so I can only legally have the fence removed from my boundary land. 
The boundary is very definitive and my side wall / his fence, are entirely on my land.

Getting someone in authority who will listen to me has been impossible. Sevenoaks take the easy option by blocking any communication from me, my MP refuses to get involved even though SDC lied to her when she did communicate with them initially. Even the Department for Levelling up made it impossible to complain when it’s them that over see LPA’s.

And yes, this has totally destroyed the past 3 1/2 years of my life because I am right, I’ve been proven right but no one in authority will listen, even solicitors want money up front before they will talk to me!

[Big Jimbo]

11 hours ago, Stephen Crowe said:

Reference points are obviously the house

No, that is not a point of origin. The house came after the map. A point of origin has to be in position before the map was drawn up. How do you know that the house was built in the exact place it is shown the map ?

If the map has no points of origin, then it is worthless..... I'm just telling you what the Judge will say to you.

[Big Jimbo]

Look, I can put you in touch with One of the countries top land surveyors. He will charge you £10k to come and visit. Take a look, get your map off you. Check for points of origin. Then, tell you you are wasting your time in relation to the boundary. 

If you are insistent that you are right, he will represent you in court. Another £10k. You will also need a top barrister for a couple of days, £20k.

So for you £40k you will get a couple of days in court. 

All the other side have to do is introduce One small , tiny,  matter that shows that your case can't be proved, and you will loose. There is no balance of probability. 

Chances are, you will loose, and will be made to pay £40k costs to your neighbour. I can think of a lot better things to do with £80k of your money.

Do yourself a massive favour, and get over it. 

You have plenty of visibility , unless you drive like a total twat.

 

You are not going to get anywhere on here.. 

 

Give us a shout when you are down £80k, and we can all offer a shoulder to cry on.

 

Sometimes in life, things just are not perfect. Get over it. More important things like your health, etc, in life.

[ProDave]

Here is another angle to it.

 

A fence that tall close to the road would have needed planning permission.  Did they apply?  Did you object?  If it's been there without PP for a number of years and nobody objected it is likely beyond the time limit for enforcement.

 

When I was going through planning for my plot visibility was raised.  At one point the planners were asking me to "demonstrate control over the visibility splay"  which of course I could not do.  I then found a recent nearby planning without that condition so I queried it and got planning without having to show control over the visibility splay.  During my conversation with someone at highways about this I said "so what if my neighbour erects a tall fence" and his reply was contact us immediately and we will come and enforce your neighbour to maintain the required visibility.

 

So have you actually asked if that fence close to thee highway does have pp?  and if not can they enforce it's removal.

 

If it IS on your land, why did you not take it down as soon as they put it there?