Foam for airtightness - about to do it...

[Garald]

Here is the space I plan to fill in with FM330 ILLBRUCK foam. (It's in an unheated if not very cold garage inside the house; cold air goes in here and makes the entire space above the ground-floor false ceiling cold - that does not help with the hot-water pipes and who knows what else.) Is there any reason why I should *not* do it? These are pipes coming in from the heat-pump.

 

[Nickfromwales]

Slide some thin wall pipe insulation over the pipes first, then foam the gaps afterwards. Finish the insulation maybe 10-20mm inside the wall so the foam can be 'around' the end of the pipe vs around the pipe insulation as air will travel in the gap between the pipe and the insulation  

Other than that, carry on 👍

 

You may find it easier to do if you attach a 400mm piece of 10/12mm water pipe to the end of the foam gun, with lots of electrical tape wound VERY tight, to extend the gun away from the group of pipes  That'll allow you to inject the foam quite deep into the cavity.

 

I'd spray some water from a hand pump spray bottle into the voids to assist the foam to expand much better and be void of hollows etc.

[Garald]

  On 12/02/2025 at 16:07, Nickfromwales said:

Slide some thin wall pipe insulation over the pipes first, then foam the gaps afterwards. Finish the insulation maybe 10-20mm inside the wall so the foam can be 'around' the end of the pipe vs around the pipe insulation as air will travel in the gap between the pipe and the insulation  

Other than that, carry on 👍

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Will do. I take that there must be some kind of pipe insulation that wraps around and seals around pipes that have already been installed. Something like this? https://www.castorama.fr/manchon-de-protection-pour-tuyaux-noma-22-mm-l-1m/5413257000634_CAFR.prd?storeId={store_code}&srsltid=AfmBOorSdsIovuzJZC5bpFTE_ibzN9R7T8C2U-50UU8JbZfBrFOWBFyGgH4

 

The funny thing is that there's already some insulation (rockwool maybe? Or polyurethane?) just inside the hole, laid in any which non-airtight wave. Let me share a better picture. See attached.

 

  On 12/02/2025 at 16:07, Nickfromwales said:

You may find it easier to do if you attach a 400mm piece of 10/12mm water pipe to the end of the foam gun, with lots of electrical tape wound VERY tight, to extend the gun away from the group of pipes  That'll allow you to inject the foam quite deep into the cavity.

 

I'd spray some water from a hand pump spray bottle into the voids to assist the foam to expand much better and be void of hollows etc.

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Sounds like good ideas! I'll go to the local paint shop first to see whether they can sell me a more "official" attachment (or some water pipe!).

Edited February 12 by Garald

[Nickfromwales]

  On 12/02/2025 at 16:49, Garald said:

Let me share a better picture. See attached.

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Ah, OK. Ditch the pipe insulation and "squirt away!".  Doesn't look like you'd get much on so pointless.

[Garald]

  On 12/02/2025 at 19:47, Nickfromwales said:

Ah, OK. Ditch the pipe insulation and "squirt away!".  Doesn't look like you'd get much on so pointless.

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Wait, so I shouldn't get the pipe insulation at all? Yes, only a short segment is uninsulated, but I take it would still help. What is true is that I can also do it later.

[Nickfromwales]

  On 12/02/2025 at 20:24, Garald said:

 

Wait, so I shouldn't get the pipe insulation at all? Yes, only a short segment is uninsulated, but I take it would still help. What is true is that I can also do it later.

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Ok. My reference to the pipe insulation was not about the exposed pipework, but only regarding what you will seal and foam to the finished wall depth.  You want this airtight, so the ends of any sunken pipe insulation cannot be on show when the foam / sealing-up work is done. You'd complete this task, and THEN insulate the exposed pipework in the garage, afterwards.

 

When you have finished this particular task, you should be then looking at foam and bare pipes only.

 

Insulating the exposed pipes in a space outside the house "thermal envelope", afterwards, is obviously necessary and wise. As a suitable punishment for not having done this yet, you must now buy each Buildhub member a beer. Sadly, as you've left this for some time, we're now at north of 20k members. 💶Ouch 🍻

 

 

 

 

 

[Garald]

  On 12/02/2025 at 21:21, Nickfromwales said:

Ok. My reference to the pipe insulation was not about the exposed pipework, but only regarding what you will seal and foam to the finished wall depth.  You want this airtight, so the ends of any sunken pipe insulation cannot be on show when the foam / sealing-up work is done. You'd complete this task, and THEN insulate the exposed pipework in the garage, afterwards.

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Oh, understood: I should remove some of that haphazardly laid insulation if necessary for an even finish. Then I'll insulate the exposed pipework.

 

  On 12/02/2025 at 21:21, Nickfromwales said:

When you have finished this particular task, you should be then looking at foam and bare pipes only.

 

Insulating the exposed pipes in a space outside the house "thermal envelope", afterwards, is obviously necessary and wise. As a suitable punishment for not having done this yet, you must now buy each Buildhub member a beer. Sadly, as you've left this for some time, we're now at north of 20k members. 💶Ouch 🍻

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Ufff. May I get out on a technicality? The garage is not a separate shed - it's inside the house, and it has a wooden door, so it's never nearly as cold as the outside.

 

If I don't get out, then distribution may be a bit of a problem. Are there real-life BuildHub get-togethers? Getting a keg (or homebrewing) would be feasible.

 

I've been going systematically through all the air-leaks detected in the house - this was just the next-to-last item (which I decided to do myself because I couldn't find a mason to cut some drywall to measure). Here is the antepenultimate item - I covered an unused fireplace in pine with 2cm of cork backing:

 

I also stuffed two of those plugs made out of British sheep up the chimney.

 

Once this is done, the only thing detected by the fan test that will remain to be done will be to replace some non-airtight access hatches. I think some hatches are rated passivhaus. Is that the sort of thing I should be able to install myself.

 

[Nickfromwales]

  On 12/02/2025 at 21:50, Garald said:

I also stuffed two of those plugs made out of British sheep up the chimney

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Not my Uncle Bert and second cousin Harold? How could you???

[Garald]

I take that's some sort of self-referential Welsh joke?

 

At any rate, my girlfriend was aghast at the William-Morris pattern, so I expected at least a cheer on that (or a mumble of agreement with her).

[Nickfromwales]

  On 12/02/2025 at 22:14, Garald said:

I take that's some sort of self-referential Welsh joke?

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Yes, lol, I'll get my coat and leave now  

[Nickfromwales]

  On 12/02/2025 at 22:14, Garald said:

At any rate, my girlfriend was aghast at the William-Morris pattern, so I expected at least a cheer on that (or a mumble of agreement with her).

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Give it time, let it soak in here for a bit.  

[Garald]

Went to the local paint shop to get 400mm of water pipe. I was told, not only that they did not have any pipe that would do, but that the kind of foam container I got (FM330 ILLBRUCK) required a fairly expensive foam gun (50 eur or so) and that I would be better off with foam that didn't require such a foam gun. Their card reader was down, so the vendor just decided to gift me a can of Sika Boom 107 (with the semi-explicit message that it was an inducement to keep buying from him and be warier of things sold on the Internet). Hopefully it will be just as good?

 

At any rate, he also told me to get some plastic pipe from a random bazar and use it to extend the can's pipe (by first heating the latter a little). Let us see.

[Redbeard]

  On 13/02/2025 at 16:09, Garald said:

but that the kind of foam container I got (FM330 ILLBRUCK) required a fairly expensive foam gun (50 eur or so)

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Several years of experience tells me that this may not be 100% accurate!

 

Yes, if you buy a £5 (or whatever that is in Euros) gun it may clog up or bend whatever type of foam you use. No gun which I have used with FM330 has ever failed and they have all been in the £10 - £20 range.

[SteamyTea]

  On 13/02/2025 at 17:05, Redbeard said:

  On 13/02/2025 at 16:09, Garald said:

but that the kind of foam container I got (FM330 ILLBRUCK) required a fairly expensive foam gun (50 eur or so)

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Several years of experience tells me that this may not be 100% accurate

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You have to remember that the French copy nobody.

How we got the Citroen DS.

[Nickfromwales]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Expanding-Insulation-Insulating-Applicator-Dispensing/dp/B0DHGS84DG?source=ps-sl-shoppingads-lpcontext&ref_=fplfs&smid=A2WJKG6BSKMDO&gQT=1&th=1

[Nickfromwales]

  On 13/02/2025 at 16:09, Garald said:

Hopefully it will be just as good?

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If you were sealing around PH rated windows in a certified PH then I'd say "non", but for this job "Oui".

[Garald]

Well, that was quick and messy. What took much more time was cleaning my hands until they were no longer sticky. (I used a microfibre cloth soaked in acetone, and then washed my hands with plenty of soap - actually, I repeated that a couple of times.)

 

I hope I can now prepare dinner without poisoning myself. (I know what acetone tastes like (badly, even in tiny traces) but I have no idea of whether polyurethane can be detected so easily.)

 

Can I put the can in the trash, or will that extinguish all life in a large radius?

 

 

 

[Nickfromwales]

 

 

Oh, I forgot to say, don't forget to wear cheap disposable gloves.....and absolute must when using this stuff. 

 

I guess you bought the disposable "all or nothing" type canister lol.

[Garald]

  On 16/02/2025 at 19:07, Nickfromwales said:

 

 

Oh, I forgot to say, don't forget to wear cheap disposable gloves.....and absolute must when using this stuff. 

 

I guess you bought the disposable "all or nothing" type canister lol.

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Not exactly. As I said: I bought a large cannister online, went to a local shop to get an extension hose, was told that I did not have the equipment, that they did not have in stock, that it would cost a fair bit, and that they would rather gift me a canister for which I didn't need equipment. I guess it did not contain an enormous amount (is that what you mean by "all or nothing"?). It does not make a noise when I shake it, so I figure it's really empty.

[SteamyTea]

Technically you cannot dispose of polyurethane in domestic waste (in the UK, we have similar rules to the EU, as we were part of it once).

 

Most foaming polyurethane uses isocyanate as the curing agent. Generally okay once cured, but quite nasty when in liquid state. Can cause a recurring rash to the skin that is incurable if further contact happens (I was poisoned with it in the 1970s and still have trouble now, 50 years on).

 

Shall say this again, not that anyone takes a blind bit of notice, acetone is not the solvent to use for cleaning, dichloromethane is the best solvent. It works.  It is also used to get the caffeine out of tea and coffee, so while not 100% benign, a (expletive deleted) of a lot safer than acetone.

Not that anyone ever listens to me about it, even with my experience of using PUs for 50 years (starting to feel old now), have even had people, who have no experience in the polymer industry tell me I am wrong (do you remember that conversation @ToughButterCup).

But what do I care, have told people repeatedly what to use, you are all grown ups, so allowed to be as stubborn as you like, and end up with scabby hands like mine.

Edited February 17 by SteamyTea

[Pocster]

  On 16/02/2025 at 18:30, Garald said:

Well, that was quick and messy. What took much more time was cleaning my hands until they were no longer sticky. (I used a microfibre cloth soaked in acetone, and then washed my hands with plenty of soap - actually, I repeated that a couple of times.)

 

I hope I can now prepare dinner without poisoning myself. (I know what acetone tastes like (badly, even in tiny traces) but I have no idea of whether polyurethane can be detected so easily.)

 

Can I put the can in the trash, or will that extinguish all life in a large radius?

 

 

 

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I foam the (expletive deleted) out of everything . I bought a large box of rubber disposable gloves ( ok , I had them already as they have other uses ) . I always buy a foam that needs a gun . I buy the cheap guns off eBay for like a fiver each . Never bother cleaning them . Sometimes they last quite a few cans before they clog; then I bin them . Just to piss @SteamyTea off ; all the cut of waste once cured I stick in the bin and off it goes to Cornwall .

Edited February 17 by Pocster

[Garald]

  On 17/02/2025 at 11:57, SteamyTea said:

Technically you cannot dispose of polyurethane in domestic waste (in the UK, we have similar rules to the EU, as we were part of it once).

 

Most foaming polyurethane uses isocyanate as the curing agent. Generally okay once cured, but quite nasty when in liquid state. Can cause a recurring rash to the skin that is incurable if further contact happens (I was poisoned with it in the 1970s and still have trouble now, 50 years on).

 

Shall say this again, not that anyone takes a blind bit of notice, acetone is not the solvent to use for cleaning, dichloromethane is the best solvent. It works.  It is also used to get the caffeine out of tea and coffee, so while not 100% benign, a (expletive deleted) of a lot safer than acetone.

Not that anyone ever listens to me about it, even with my experience of using PUs for 50 years (starting to feel old now), have even had people, who have no experience in the polymer industry tell me I am wrong (do you remember that conversation @ToughButterCup).

But what do I care, have told people repeatedly what to use, you are all grown ups, so allowed to be as stubborn as you like, and end up with scabby hands like mine.

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This is extremely valuable advice, and I would have certainly used it if it had been available at the time (I used acetone because that was the piece of advice I could quickly find online when searching with sticky fingers). It's a shame that acetone is much easier to get (supermarket).

 

I'll ask the people at the paint shop where to dispose of the canister.

[SteamyTea]

  On 17/02/2025 at 12:11, Pocster said:

once cured I stick in the bin and off it goes to Cornwall .

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Where we burn it in the energy from waste incinerator, with the fumes taken away by the prevailing SW winds, so ends up in Bristol as particulates and cyanide.

We use the energy to make pasties.

Who is (expletive deleted)ing laughing now.

[Pocster]

  On 17/02/2025 at 12:24, SteamyTea said:

Where we burn it in the energy from waste incinerator, with the fumes taken away by the prevailing SW winds, so ends up in Bristol as particulates and cyanide.

We use the energy to make pasties.

Who is (expletive deleted)ing laughing now.

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Fair play . Pasties made and dead Bristolians - sounds like a win to me 

[SteamyTea]

  On 17/02/2025 at 12:37, Pocster said:

Pasties made and dead Bristolians

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And electricity.