CIL horror story for a novice

[nelly]

Hi,

 

After just reading one horror story on the forum that got resolved based on a lack of proper communication re. cil I do not think we will be that lucky.  I was helping a close friend with a build i.e. design with the build and sourcing the builder and helping design and finish the property.  We ran into difficulties starting a couple of weeks ago when the builder suggested removing the entire front wall based on just how weak it was given just how many changes that were being made to it. 

 

The rest of the house except the party wall (end of terrace) was going to be demolished anyway.  Without any knowledge about CIL or much knowledge about planning we enthusiastically said no problem, go for it.   The council found out and got a picture of the cleared site and are now at the beginning of their correspondence stating that we need to put in for a demolition and rebuild that will trigger CIL.  We are about 180square meters which was about 80 or 90 sqm more than the original house.  This will lead to around 52k+ worth of CIl never mind any other fees. 

 

Given that that we currently have planning for the extension that we are following could we potentially just see if they are actually going to enforce on their current request to apply for a demolition and rebuild?  I strongly believe they will enforce on the matter.  Would that lead to a fine right away?  Could it have any other implications?  Would we have any chance of appeal on the basis that the party wall remains and its technically not a new build?

 

The brick work will be completed by this weekend leaving the site clear for Xmas and no risk to the party wall.   It is a clear breech that the front wall which was supposed to be largely amended by us was taken down but only through isafety concerns rather than any malice.  If anyone has any advice please let me know.  My friend will live here with his family for the rest of his life so no plans to move out at all in the next 30/40 years or so.

 

Any advice on the situation would be much appreciated.  At the moment I cannot see our way out of applying as they want and paying the devasting CIL charge.

[Mr Punter]

It may be worth stopping all work, then applying for planning consent for a replacement dwelling.  Your friend should be eligible for CIL exemption, as well as VAT back.  The VAT and CIL need doing correctly as the rules are strict.

[TommoUK]

Lots of councils are broke and are becoming increasingly forensic about CIL.  If work has been carries out without planning and is over the 100 sqm threshold the person assuming liability will potentially pay a penalty on top of the CIL. Take some legal advice before making your next move.

[TommoUK]

..also bear in mind that they want you to apply for a rebuild of the whole so they can claim cil on the enlarged house. The existing floor area cant be offset and CIL demolition  releif won't  be available on the new application as work has commenced prior to PP and prior to service of the CIL commencement notice. 

[Redbeard]

OK, so currently you have a site, and the party wall is temporarily a gable wall. Pictures would help but if I am right in my surmise I am not sure that you can argue that anything remains. You can argue that *your* party wall remains; they can say 'no, that's the neighbour's'. The neighbour has a house to back up their claim and you don't, as far as I can tell from your description.

 

Or does some of the gable wall remain? You refer to a 'cleared site' which suggests not, but you refer to only demolishing the *front* wall. You could definitely plead ignorance of the rules and explain that the builder deemed to front wall unsafe (??) and 'ask for forgiveness' but in the light of @TommoUK's post I am not sure how much success you will have.

 

Full contact; full disclosure, I guess must be the approach. Get onto the LA and explain the circumstances very clearly. I also think you and the owner probably need expert 3rd party advice. I am not sure if that's from  Planning Consultant or what. I do wish you luck. This must be extremely distressing.

[G and J]

So, if i understand correctly, you (well, your ‘friend’) had planning permission for an extension but always planned to demolish anyway?  

 

 

[TommoUK]

Contact Christopher Cant. He's an authority CIL

[nelly]

 

9 minutes ago, G and J said:

So, if i understand correctly, you (well, your ‘friend’) had planning permission for an extension but always planned to demolish anyway?  

 

 

hi, thanks everyone so far.  We thought the extensive changes would be doable as an extension.  The builder then said the front wall became unstable during the part demolition with the council building control backing him up (building control was hired directly by the builder and works for a neighboring borough that allows them to cover other boroughs).  Building control says he is happy to back us up and write a statement.

 

We are currently deciding our next steps and potentially be looking to work with a planning consultant in case of any chance of getting this resolved.  Hopefully there is a glimmer of hope somewhere!

[nelly]

1 hour ago, TommoUK said:

..also bear in mind that they want you to apply for a rebuild of the whole so they can claim cil on the enlarged house. The existing floor area cant be offset and CIL demolition  releif won't  be available on the new application as work has commenced prior to PP and prior to service of the CIL commencement notice. 

that is my understanding to

[nelly]

59 minutes ago, Redbeard said:

OK, so currently you have a site, and the party wall is temporarily a gable wall. Pictures would help but if I am right in my surmise I am not sure that you can argue that anything remains. You can argue that *your* party wall remains; they can say 'no, that's the neighbour's'. The neighbour has a house to back up their claim and you don't, as far as I can tell from your description.

 

Or does some of the gable wall remain? You refer to a 'cleared site' which suggests not, but you refer to only demolishing the *front* wall. You could definitely plead ignorance of the rules and explain that the builder deemed to front wall unsafe (??) and 'ask for forgiveness' but in the light of @TommoUK's post I am not sure how much success you will have.

 

Full contact; full disclosure, I guess must be the approach. Get onto the LA and explain the circumstances very clearly. I also think you and the owner probably need expert 3rd party advice. I am not sure if that's from  Planning Consultant or what. I do wish you luck. This must be extremely distressing.

thanks , yes correct all the walls bar the party had been takekn out at the time the local authority visited.

[nod]

1 hour ago, Redbeard said:

OK, so currently you have a site, and the party wall is temporarily a gable wall. Pictures would help but if I am right in my surmise I am not sure that you can argue that anything remains. You can argue that *your* party wall remains; they can say 'no, that's the neighbour's'. The neighbour has a house to back up their claim and you don't, as far as I can tell from your description.

 

Or does some of the gable wall remain? You refer to a 'cleared site' which suggests not, but you refer to only demolishing the *front* wall. You could definitely plead ignorance of the rules and explain that the builder deemed to front wall unsafe (??) and 'ask for forgiveness' but in the light of @TommoUK's post I am not sure how much success you will have.

 

Full contact; full disclosure, I guess must be the approach. Get onto the LA and explain the circumstances very clearly. I also think you and the owner probably need expert 3rd party advice. I am not sure if that's from  Planning Consultant or what. I do wish you luck. This must be extremely distressing.

The last bit of advise is spot on 

It will cost But you need to bring in a planning consultant Without You have little chance of sorting this out 

Cil payments have been enforced for much less than this 

At the very least you can sort out your vat liability 

 

 

[Thorfun]

probably not want you want to hear but as has been said above if you apply for demolish and rebuild you'll save VAT which on a 180m2 house at £2k/m2 is well over the £52k CIL. so for the worst case scenario if they do enforce the CIL then if you're looking for a silver lining it could actually save money in the long run as you'll save VAT.

[torre]

2 hours ago, Mr Punter said:

stopping all work, then applying for planning consent for a replacement dwelling

I'd echo this. They're now effectively building a replacement dwelling and don't have planning permission to do so.

 

Your friend needs to take legal advice on the subject of CIL but a possible upside of this is that because they don't have planning permission and haven't lawfully commenced, they won't be liable for CIL at this point, and assuming they eventually get permission will then benefit from self build exemption.

Edited Friday at 17:43 by torre
typos

[G and J]

23 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

probably not want you want to hear but as has been said above if you apply for demolish and rebuild you'll save VAT which on a 180m2 house at £2k/m2 is well over the £52k CIL. so for the worst case scenario if they do enforce the CIL then if you're looking for a silver lining it could actually save money in the long run as you'll save VAT.

It used to be if you left a corner of a wall you couldn’t reclaim the vat.  As you are bracing the party wall that might be deemed to leave a corner.  I’d suggest you tread carefully with respect to assuming a vat reclaim will be successful.  Would have thought clarifying that with HMRC might be good.

[Alan Ambrose]

This unethical use by LPAs of CIL law (or interpretation) has to stop. Government should be setting an example on ethics, not racing the private sector to the ‘now you’re f….d’ bottom. This makes the dodgy parking enforcers, the seedier part of the insurance industry, the people who sold detached houses as leasehold, and the guys installing flammable cladding in high rises … look like saints.

[nelly]

8 hours ago, Alan Ambrose said:

This unethical use by LPAs of CIL law (or interpretation) has to stop. Government should be setting an example on ethics, not racing the private sector to the ‘now you’re f….d’ bottom. This makes the dodgy parking enforcers, the seedier part of the insurance industry, the people who sold detached houses as leasehold, and the guys installing flammable cladding in high rises … look like saints.

Sad times.  Things have changed a lot in the last 10 years in all things property related.

[nelly]

8 hours ago, G and J said:

It used to be if you left a corner of a wall you couldn’t reclaim the vat.  As you are bracing the party wall that might be deemed to leave a corner.  I’d suggest you tread carefully with respect to assuming a vat reclaim will be successful.  Would have thought clarifying that with HMRC might be good.

as the house has already been built excluding the roof but potentially not with new build regs it may not actually get signed off as a new build.... (just a guess) 

[TommoUK]

One last thought. Was the original house less than 100m2 (you implied this above). If so put in for planning to rebuild the existing house only. Complete it and carry out the extension at a later date. This may work but check with you planning consultant.

[Berkshire_selfbuid]

Having gone through a CIL scare recently myself, I sympathise with your position and have my fingers crossed that you get over the other side with minimal financial and emotional damage. During my issue, I was in contact with a local planning consultant. Dealt with a gent called Derek who was super helpful and spoke with the LA for me and played a part in getting me out of trouble. May be worth getting in touch with them: www.etplanning.co.uk

[nelly]

3 hours ago, TommoUK said:

One last thought. Was the original house less than 100m2 (you implied this above). If so put in for planning to rebuild the existing house only. Complete it and carry out the extension at a later date. This may work but check with you planning consultant.

hi, it would cost more to undo the house then the cil charge as the structure has just completed today.  the Site will be closed now for xmas but appreciate the efforts made to come with a solution!

[nelly]

35 minutes ago, Berkshire_selfbuid said:

Having gone through a CIL scare recently myself, I sympathise with your position and have my fingers crossed that you get over the other side with minimal financial and emotional damage. During my issue, I was in contact with a local planning consultant. Dealt with a gent called Derek who was super helpful and spoke with the LA for me and played a part in getting me out of trouble. May be worth getting in touch with them: www.etplanning.co.uk

hi, thanks a lot that is exactly the sort of person we will need I think.  If you are able to divulge a little more info about your case that would be great but if not no issues.

[Berkshire_selfbuid]

53 minutes ago, nelly said:

hi, thanks a lot that is exactly the sort of person we will need I think.  If you are able to divulge a little more info about your case that would be great but if not no issues.

My case is pretty much all covered in the topic which you have mentioned in your initial post. Thankfully got resolved on the technicality of me not receiving CIL Liability form in the post. ET Planning was helpful to talk to and did me a favour to speaking to my LA which probably helped my case. In the background I had written to the local MP, as recommended by the members on this forum, who had actually drafted up a response ready to be sent to the council to urge them to apply discretion. I would strongly suggest writing to your local MP detailing your case. As well as writing to the council CEO and senior council staff.

[nelly]

2 hours ago, Berkshire_selfbuid said:

My case is pretty much all covered in the topic which you have mentioned in your initial post. Thankfully got resolved on the technicality of me not receiving CIL Liability form in the post. ET Planning was helpful to talk to and did me a favour to speaking to my LA which probably helped my case. In the background I had written to the local MP, as recommended by the members on this forum, who had actually drafted up a response ready to be sent to the council to urge them to apply discretion. I would strongly suggest writing to your local MP detailing your case. As well as writing to the council CEO and senior council staff.

sorry - yes great news for you and your family and appreciate the advice

[Redbeard]

3 hours ago, nelly said:

the structure has just completed today.

 

To what insulation standard? If it's a refurb then the U value targets are elemental - a wall needs to be this, a roof that, etc. New-build is treated differently and it's done via a SAP (Standard Assessment Procedure -for the energy rating of buildings) assessment, comparing the CO2 emissions you will achieve in your build (the Design Emissions Rating - DER) against a minimum target (The Target Emissions Rating - TER). 

 

Can you confirm what thermal standards the walls, for example, have been built back to? The extension is not an issue because extensions are assessed elementally, too, and the target is 0.18W/m2K. How about the walls which were 'existing' till they got knocked down?

[nelly]

16 hours ago, Redbeard said:

 

To what insulation standard? If it's a refurb then the U value targets are elemental - a wall needs to be this, a roof that, etc. New-build is treated differently and it's done via a SAP (Standard Assessment Procedure -for the energy rating of buildings) assessment, comparing the CO2 emissions you will achieve in your build (the Design Emissions Rating - DER) against a minimum target (The Target Emissions Rating - TER). 

 

Can you confirm what thermal standards the walls, for example, have been built back to? The extension is not an issue because extensions are assessed elementally, too, and the target is 0.18W/m2K. How about the walls which were 'existing' till they got knocked down?

hi, would have to understand all this with the builders.  I wanted to understand if we are forced to submit a new build application but the property only is up to the standard of an extension then what would be the implications of that?