Vaillant aroTherm Plus or Ideal Logic ASHP (any recommendations appreciated)

[Jeezeeh95]

We're in the middle of a self-build new build in Hertfordshire, well insulated as per new building regs and we require an ASHP system.

 

The house will be a 4 bed semi, currently me and my partner but with a view to have kids in years to come.

 

Our estimated heat loss is around 5KW @ -2.5 degrees (estimates from lots of installers to gauge a price, a proper heat loss will be done prior to install) and we're looking to get a 250L cylinder as well (is this overkill for 2 of us and considering kids in the coming years?)

 

We've been offered a lot of brands but after LOTS of research, i've whittled it down to a few but leaning more towards Vaillant as we can take advantage of the OVO 15p per KW tariff

 

Other brands we've been told about are Ideal Logic, Bosch, Grant and a couple more.... but which one in your opinions would suit our project best?

 

Happy to share more info or our floor plans to help me with this conundrum! 

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

P.s. I found this PDF regarding the Vaillant + 250L cylinder, is this something I should reconsider?

Which cylinders can go with ASHPs Vaillant.pdf

[IGP]

There is also the Viessmann Vitocal 150 /151 A's, they also can integrate with the OVO tariffs (I assume any others that might work in the same way in future) and seem to be considered by some of the heatgeek engineers on twitter as the dogs danglies. 

 

I'm leaning that way when i move from my gas boiler to ASHP.

[Post and beam]

Where in North Herts are you? We will be installing an Arotherm 7kw Once we get to that stage. Currently empty shell with roof tiles 50% done.

 

Edit: Location added.  We are in Aston, which is next to Stevenage.

Edited Monday at 11:33 by Post and beam

[sharpener]

1 hour ago, Jeezeeh95 said:

P.s. I found this PDF regarding the Vaillant + 250L cylinder, is this something I should reconsider?

 

According to this discussion that advice is outdated, and plenty of ppl there say 5kW is compatible with 250 l cyl.

 

[JohnMo]

Ideal is made in the UK, which may have advantage for parts and support?

 

Most heat pumps are good, the install is the important bit really

 

Generally - Volumisers are ok, buffers avoid, lots of zones avoid.  If the system looks very simple that is generally good. minimal install is heat pump, 3 way diverter valve to cylinder or heating system, one thermostat. Either run weather compensation or use thermostat on fixed temp of around 35 degs. A fixed flow temperature can yield performance benifits because it allows extended runs times and avoids short cycling. If installer suggests above 45 deg flow temp, move on to next installer.

 

Cylinder size, two things drive this. number of bedrooms (minimum size), and life style (to make it bigger).  There are two of us we have 210L and wouldn't want any smaller.  If you have kids coming down the line, I would suggest 300L.

 

Discussion on OVO over the last few days on here - have a search.  But no thanks from me - based on their performance when I was a customer. Octopus may be a better choice.

[sharpener]

51 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Cylinder size, two things drive this. number of bedrooms (minimum size), and life style (to make it bigger).  There are two of us we have 210L and wouldn't want any smaller.  If you have kids coming down the line, I would suggest 300L.

 

Standard calc for 4 beds gives 225 so installer will probably want to fit 250 min. Should be OK for a family if you are happy to top up in afternoon (when Cosy is cheap for 3 hrs anyway).

[JamesPa]

3 hours ago, JohnMo said:

Ideal is made in the UK, which may have advantage for parts and support?

 

I thought that their R290 products are rebadged Midea, at least thats what the people at Adia told me.   I (and they) could be wrong of course!  Otherwise agree with everything you say above, check EON tariffs as well as Octopus if you have an EV (and possibly if you dont).

Edited Monday at 15:14 by JamesPa

[JohnMo]

11 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

R290 products are rebadged Midea

Just looked and you look to be correct for R290.

 

R32 look very different to midea.

 

[Beelbeebub]

At least some vaillant arotherms are made in the UK (Belper, Derbyshire) 

[JamesPa]

2 hours ago, JohnMo said:

Just looked and you look to be correct for R290.

 

R32 look very different to midea.

 

Indeed.  The Ideal R32 range looks suspiciously like Mitsubishi pumps to me, albeit with Ideals own control system.  The physical dimensions are a perfect match.

[JohnMo]

Don't you just hate all this badge engineering?

 

UK skill base seems to have diminished to, use heat gun or similar to remove sticker, stick on new sticker. Now UK made?

 

Where is the innovation, product development - somewhere overseas.

 

We under invest in training, don't have the highly skilled workforce we should have, and they have to install to the best of their ability. 

 

Government hide behind private organisations etc.

 

Lived in Malaysia for awhile - if wasn't produced in country (with I think 80% of all material components) it carried a minimum 100% import duty. 

Edited Monday at 17:42 by JohnMo

[PhilT]

Demand is the biggest obstacle - companies won't invest in the UK until things look a lot more promising. My nephew works for Vaillant (Belper). This year they had to furlough staff due to lack of demand. Vaillant Germany made staff cuts earlier this year due to poor demand.

[ringi]

12 hours ago, Jeezeeh95 said:

P.s. I found this PDF regarding the Vaillant + 250L cylinder, is this something I should reconsider?

 

Only if you need to reheat the cylinder quickly, otherwise a smaller heatpump will tend to give better COP for DHW as dt will remain low for longer.

[JohnMo]

Also get a heat pump cylinder with a big coil, not the mini coil Vaillant install. Had zero issues with 6kW heat pump heating a Ideal 210L - 3m² coil. Others on here have 300L and small heat pump without issues.

[sharpener]

1 hour ago, ringi said:

 

Only if you need to reheat the cylinder quickly, otherwise a smaller heatpump will tend to give better COP for DHW as dt will remain low for longer.

 

I think you will find the warm-up curve will be spread out over time but the shape will be the same. So the CoP as a function of increasing temp will be identical and the overall efficiency willl be exactly the same.

[sharpener]

7 hours ago, Beelbeebub said:

At least some vaillant arotherms are made in the UK (Belper, Derbyshire) 

 

And there is a big Mitsi factory somewhere in the Central Belt of Scotland, videos of operations there avail. on youtube.

[Beelbeebub]

We actually make a surprising amount of stuff in the UK.

 

About 10 years ago we used to be around the 5th largest golds exporter in the world.

 

Obviously we would be behind the big 3: China, USA and Germany. Then it would be Japan, S Korea, France and UK all at more or less the same level swapping places from year to year and rank method to rank method.

 

We"ve slipped a bit since then because of some extra trade barriers but we are still in that mix below the big 3. Just a little more mod pack, around the 6-12 place mark.

 

The big diffence is it's no longer the mass market stuff like clothes, bikes, furniture, iron mongery etc.

 

And it's no longer a big employer with huge factories employing thousands of workers in giant halls.

 

UK manufacturing is more biased to high value, high skill items. Machine components, aero engines, scientific equipment etc. These are made in boring industrial units with a few hundred or even few tens of employees so we don't see them.

 

 

[MikeSharp01]

 

13 hours ago, Beelbeebub said:

We actually make a surprising amount of stuff in the UK.

 

We can't rest on our laurels though we need an industrial strategy that aligns with exactly the products and systems you describe. 

[mk1_man]

Hi, for what its worth I have the 7kW Vaillant Arotherm plus alongside the Vaillant 250litre cylinder.  Very happy with the performance, overall a scop of 4.8 since installation in Sept. I heat the water once in the early hours to 60 degrees so not exactly the most efficient way of doing things even though it is set to ECO mode. I don't mind as this is when the electric is only 5p/kWh. Heating once to this temperature is enough to last us all day and we bath (large 800 x 1800) each day and its enough. I would advise going to a 300l if you can fit it in, ours is in the loft so restricted to the 250. Bonus with Vaillants is that they are 600mm wide as opposed to majority at I think 550mm so generally shorter than others.  Not sure where comments of mini coils come from, the 250l is 2.4m2 and the 300 is 2.8m2.  Quantity isn't always better than quality.

 

Not sure what you area of house is and if you have underfloor or not but our 7kWh has performed brilliantly with +5 COP being the norm on heating. We are 250m2 with underfloor on both floors however upstairs is never on apart from bathrooms. The heatpump generally ticks over at around 500 - 600 watts consumption which is amazing.

 

One option is to install yourself or get a local plumber to install this way you can avoid the inflated costs that majority of MCS companies charge.  We purchased the heatpump and cylinder ourselves and then used an MCS umbrella company to do the heat loss calcs, paperwork, 7 year warranty, BUS application etc. Our install ended up being cost neutral one we received the £7.5k grant.  I then invested some of the money I would have spent if i had gone the usual route by investing in some batteries so that we can run the whole house 24 x 7 on cheap overnight electric (5p/kWh).  This I feel is a better option than tying into OVO scheme where you only get the 15p against the heat pump only and not the rest of the house consumption.  There is potential that they may end up controlling your heating schedule also?

 

what ever route you take, going all electric with heat pump is best thing we ever did 🙂