UFH Wiring Centre / Stats lose function

[Burkle]

Apologies if this is posted in the wrong section - there is a bit of a crossover between plumbing / UFH / boilers / radiators / electrical. 

 

We have a combi boiler, with radiators, which runs from a hive stat. We had underfloor heating installed to the ground floor (manifold, pump, valve etc all on the ground floor) which runs off the same boiler, which has its own wiring centre and stats on RF signal to said wiring centre - so both can run together or on their own, and when it works it is great.

 

My issue, which hopefully somebody might be able to advise on, is that the UFH heating every so often stops working to the schedule... its as though the wiring centre doesn't receive the signal from the stats. At first i thought this might be the RF signal, but i have tried this with the stats within a couple of metres of the wiring centre, and get the same issue (the room is a big open plan space, around 10m long x 6m wide, with 2 stats and the wiring centre in the same room).

 

Even if i reset the stats or use the boost feature on them, it doesn't fire up the boiler through the wiring centre. There is power to the wiring centre (light is on to confirm this too), and the boiler, pump and relevant zones can be fired up using the test switches in the wiring centre (this is why i thought it might be something to do with the RF signal).

 

But, the only way i can find to get it working again properly is to turn off the power to everything (via the fused spur to the boiler and everything attached), and turn it back on then everything works fine again... well, for so long anyway. As an example, the boiler was power was turned off / on again on friday evening, and everything has worked ok on the schedule until this morning (Monday) when the UFH did not come on as scheduled. 

 

Sometimes this might be less than a day, sometimes over a week, before the UFH stops working through the stats again. The radiators still work fine connected to the hive direct to the boiler (there is also a zone valve on this which works no problem to allow the radiators and UFH to work individually). 

The system is snugstat, with the RF stats, and the WB9-RF wiring centre. I have spoken to the manufacturer about the issues, and have replaced the wiring centre once, and the stats have been replaced twice, but still have the issue. An electrician installed everything with the plumber, and a separate electrician has checked all the wiring and cant find any issues either.

Does anybody have any thoughts on why this might be happening? and what i can do to solve the issue?

I have been pondering over getting hive stats to connect up to the wiring centre as we have never had an issue with the hive for the radiators, but don't want to spend the money on this yet in case it is something to do with the wiring centre and the way this all works.

Any help, advice or general thoughts and comments on the issue would be much appreciated.

[ProDave]

Post some pictures of your wiring centre and the UFH manifold and in particular did they install any 2 or 3 port motorised valves when fitting the system?

[Burkle]

Hi ProDave, thanks for the response - I dont have any new pictures to hand, but have posted a couple of files of which show previous photos i have. 

One shows the area of the manifold, the other shows the area of the boiler and the wiring box which links everything up. 

There are 2 2 port valves (one off the pipework under the boiler for the radiator system, the other to the left side of the manifold for the UFH connected to the wiring centre). 

As i say, when its working it works absolutely fine, i just cannot figure out why the UFH aspect stops working with the stats intermittently. whens its on and working it will fire up and turn off absolutely fine, its just when at some point its like it has a total loss of connection between the stats and the wiring centre, and the only way to resolve it is to cut the power to the wiring centre and turn it back on. 

Just to add too, it makes no difference if i turn off the stats (and even factory reset and reconfigure) to try and get them to function the controls through the wiring centre again. 

[ProDave]

First thing to check is on your WB9-RF when a zone calls for heat is the LED on the controller for that zone light up?  If not the problem lies with the TF thermostat for that zone.

 

If the LED is light up, the RF thermostat is working, next check is the manifold pump running?  Is the 2 port valve for the UFH energised?

 

Report back.

[Burkle]

Thanks again for the response, from past experience (and trying to figure this out)

On the WB9-RF when the zone calls for heat (either from the schedule, or manual call or "boost") the relevant zone lights up fine.

The "power" LED is always on (unless power it switched off at the fused spur)

If any of the zones (we only utilise 2 zones on here) call for heat (when the system works) then the zone LED, along with the "boiler", "pump" and "valve" LED's all light up together to confirm everything is working. 

There is power running to all when required. The issue is more that it seems to be that the RF signal from the stats just stops communicating for no apparent reason and so there will be no heat. In this instance the only LED which will light up on the wiring centre is the "power" as this is always on to confirm power running to the unit. Its the call from the stat to tell the unit to power everything else up. 

The thing i cannot figure out with it is that it just stops works, there doesnt seem to be any pattern to this, and sometimes it will work for days, others it will be much shorter. The stats themselves are still "working" (e.g set the temp higher to see a flame on the screen suggesting a call for heat), and even if i turn the stat off, reset to factory settings (ensuring the receiver settings all match the wiring centre still) then it still doesnt trigger the zone on the WB9-RF. It will only start to work again (even if the stats are halfway through a heat schedule too) once the power to the WB9-RF has been turned off at the switch and back on (and it has to be for sufficient enough time to ensure power has been stopped - say 20-30 seconds).

[ProDave]

1 hour ago, Burkle said:

The issue is more that it seems to be that the RF signal from the stats just stops communicating for no apparent reason and so there will be no heat. In this instance the only LED which will light up on the wiring centre is the "power" as this is always on to confirm power running to the unit. Its the call from the stat to tell the unit to power everything else up. 

That has narrowed it down.

 

Are the wireless stats mains or battery powered?  If battery can you physically move it closer to the WB9?  Have you checked the state of the battery?  how far away is it?  Any thick walls in the way?  Any NEW equipment added like new wifi router?

 

[Burkle]

The wireless stats are mains powered, with no potential to use them as battery powered . 

 

I have tested them within a few metres of the wiring centre, and say around 10m+ away too. There is no apparent difference in their operation based on both. The stats are both currently within 1 metre of the wiring centre. 

 

They are currently within an open plan room, with no walls in the way, and any walls within the vicinity are generally single skin brickwork with new plasterboards and skim. 

 

There is no new equipment in the area. The WIFI router sits not too far away from the unit at present, but always has done.... and as suggested above, sometimes the system will all work fine for days, and then just wont work. Its not intermittent either in that some days it works and some days it doesn't, it is always a case that once it has stopped functioning it just wont work again until it is powered off and on. 

 

There could possibly be some disruption with the RF and the WIFI router in theory, but i would expect this would be intermittent?

[JohnMo]

6 hours ago, Burkle said:

room is a big open plan space, around 10m long x 6m wide, with 2 stats and the wiring centre in the same room).

Why do you need two stats in the same room? That is just a waste of time and your money. If the UFH is in one big room you only need one thermostat at most. Your issue could be the stats RF signal band could be just interfering with each other. Make it a single zone and get rid of the second thermostat.

 

I would suspect your gas boiler is short cycling a lot, with the house zoned so much, but that's another issue.

[Burkle]

The stats are not usually in the same room, one is normally in the larger room, and the other is normally in the utility which is just off this room. They are in the same room at the minute trialling whether it makes any difference to their operation. There is no apparent difference. 

 

The room itself is split into 3 separate areas too - a "snug" which is open sided to a dining area with a bay, and then then main kitchen which has a glazed gable end. The UFH coils allow for 3 zoned areas within this space (it is around 60m² in total, so not a small space, with the glass gable end likely to be cooler than the inner part of the room) - this is how it was designed/calculated by the UFH company. 

 

Rather than having 3 zones in here on 3 stats, they are all on 1 stat with the 3 actuator heads on the manifold wired to a single zone. Then the additional zone is the utility which is a separate room. 

 

Originally i had all 4 actuator zones on a single switch to operate the UFH during the works and prior to everything being installed properly. I maybe need to try everything again on a single stat to see if i have any issues with the loss of function this way.... that would confirm whether the 2 stat signals might be the issue.

 

Although if one stat is turned off, then if the signal was the issue the boiler/system should fire up when heat is called for still for the other still - this isn't the case though from trial and error, it still requires that power is turned off altogether to the system for it to start working again.

 

I will try putting everything on a single stat later to see if it makes any difference. 

[ProDave]

It sounds like an RF interference issue, or the non working stat has become faulty.  Does the manual say what frequency they operate on?

[Burkle]

Not entirely sure and can't find any information. If connecting the stats to the app on your phone though you need to be using 2.4GHz signal, so it may be on that frequency.

I have connected all actuator heads to a single stat tonight, reset thr power, and have the stat around 4 metres away... I will see how long it works OK! 

[ProDave]

Can you post an actual model number of the thermostats, there must be something on them somewhere?

[Burkle]

The stats are Snugstat wireless RF stats ( SnugStat RF Wireless Wi-Fi Thermostat - Snug Underfloor Heating (snugufh.co.uk)) and their datasheet is here SnugStat-RF-Wireless-Wi-Fi-Thermostat-Data-Sheet.pdf (snugufh.co.uk)

 

The stats have all been replaced under warranty (1 of them has had 2 replacements, as the first received needed a firmware update, which couldn't be done at home), with the most recent replacements being in July 2024. 

 

I don't have specific model numbers to hand, but can look on the stats when i'm home. 

 

The heating has only really been up and running in here through December 2023, january-april 2024, and then will start to be used more frequently in coming months (hence why i am looking at everything again). 

 

All worked fine this morning on the 1 stat now i've put everything on a single zone (just kind of defeats the object of zones) so i will monitor this. It may be interference between the stats as you say. This is where i had thought previously of replaced these stats altogether and wiring in 2 Hive stats to match that of the radiator system (i know some people dont like Hive, or other systems, but i've never had a single issue with ours).

 

 

[JohnMo]

On 16/09/2024 at 09:21, Burkle said:

boiler, with radiators, which runs from a hive stat. We had underfloor heating installed to the ground floor (manifold, pump, valve etc all on the ground floor) which runs off the same boiler, which has its own wiring centre and stats on RF signal to said wiring centre - so both can run together or on their own

If only radiators or a single zone of UFH is asking for don't you get a lot of cycling of the boiler. So it runs a short period locked out for 10 mins repeat. I halved our gas bills by getting rid of zones

[Burkle]

Not as far as i am aware with the way everything is scheduled, and no noticeable increase in gas usage / bills (other than the fact they keep going up!). The schedule on the stats for both the radiators and the UFH are all set to the same temperatures, during the same time periods. We also don't have the temp set too high on the stats either (typically 17 degrees when heating required, and this would typically be for around 4 hours per day in cold weather), and also find the boiler temp setting doesn't need to be too high (typically around 50-55) - this is just what we are used to living in and anything warmer gets too hot. If we need extra heat with either use the boost functions (which is then when the boiler might be used for just 1 zone), or put the burner / fire on. 

Whilst the heating is on if the zone with the radiators gets to temp quicker than the UFH zone area of the house then the stats shuts off the port valve for that part of the system but may keep running for the other. 

[JohnMo]

So almost operating as a single zone really. Hence no issues.

[Temp]

I would download a free WiFi Analyzer app from the playstore for your phone. The one I have will give you a graph of the channels being used. See if there are two on same channel or very close.  Might need to move your WiFi to a different channel.

 

This is the one I'm using and it currently shows my printer is clashing with one of my wireless APs both on Channel 2.

 

[Temp]

Found this vid if you need to move the Stats and Wiring Centre to a different channel..

 

https://www.tiktok.com/@snugunderfloorheating/video/7234800695273196826

 

[Burkle]

Thanks Temp, i will look into this and try 

 

pairing the stats to the receiver is no problem, and i've treid a couple of different channels on here to see if it made a difference, but i will see if i can find whether there is any conflict first too 

 

Edited September 18 by Burkle

[Burkle]

a bit of an update - system has been working fine generally coming on and turning off (if needed depending on temperature) since putting everything onto a single stat.... until this morning! Heating did not initiate on the wiring centre, but shows as being turned on on the stat (flame symbol). 

I downloaded a wifi analyser and have checked this to see if any signals are conflicting, but i've never seen anything on the app which looks like it could be that stat signal (only wifi internet services around the area). 

I am going to try the stats on a different channel to see if this makes any difference too, and will try and change this without powering down the system first to see if it switches over. I will keep you updated

[Burkle]

Just another update - tried changing to different channels and resetting everything again, it's worked then lost connection again until power reset... tried moving stat to different areas.. same scenario, sometimes within half a day it'll lose connection, sometimes a few days. 

Other than that these stats and centre just don't like it here, I cannot figure it out. No pattern to it losing connection tion at all, and the only way it will regain is to shut power off and on (have to leave it off for 20-30 seconds too). Even if the stat calls for heat but the ufh doesn't fire up, if I leave the stat on the schedule, then re-power the wiring centre, it gains connection and fires up fine. 

If anyone has any ideas as to how the power might effect the wiring centre antenna let me know. 

 

I think I will look to replace the stats with hives to see if these experience the same issue 

[Andehh]

Has it always done this? RF signal can be funny at times.

 

I had an IR extender (mammox pyramid IR extender or something) to enable me to change TV channel from a different room... Sky box split between two rooms via HDMI SPLITTER.

 

turned out, when it was in it blocked my house mates vauxhall astra remote locking. Assumed the pyramid's IR was so much stronger it drowned out the remotes.

 

I wonder if you have any stronger IR in the house blocking things?

[Burkle]

Update - Andehh, it has always done this, but hasn't been used much since being installed and has never has a pattern to it. 

 

However, I've not had any issues for a good few days now. I've tried a few things since my original message, but the latest thing I have done is move an existing hub upstairs (a hub for electric car charger). Never thought too much of it... until I've notices that the tv remote for the tv upstairs nearest this hub no longer works... I'm suspecting this may be the issue!