Can we rebuild a small barn?

[willow171]

Hello

We have a small barn (originally a cow milking barn before farm was split up and sold many years ago) approx 14m x 4.5m at the bottom of our field of about half an acre. The field is on a separate title to our house and garden, although we use it as an extension of our garden. It is not classed as agricultural. I think it is classed as countryside. It is not in a national park or AONB.

Half of the barn came down in a storm several years ago, according to previous owners.

We have made safe the part that still stands and my husband uses it as his workshop.

Would we be able to rebuild the part that has collapsed? there is still parts of the wall left, but they would need rebuilding. Or would we have to get planning permission? And would we be able to make it out of different materials, the roof was the heavy clay tiles, we would rather have a lighter, cheaper option.

I was going to ask the planning department, but it seems nowadays they wont answer any questions without a fee.

[IanR]

Since there has been some time since it partially came down, and sounds like for a period it wasn't used, then it will be down to your LPA's view on whether the building had been abandoned and therefore the rights lost to the previous Use for the barn. If that is the case it can not be rebuilt. If the previous Use is not considered abandoned then you can rebuild the same shape, size and style, as long as it remains suitable for the previous Use.

 

It's probably not a question you want to ask the LPA, if the Use you are now putting it to (either incidental to the enjoyment of the house, or light industrial, depending on whether the workshop is a commercial enterprise or not) is not the same as the previous Use, which may well have been agricultural, although I hear you suggest it is not. You needs to be in its new Use for 4 years, without a break, before you have the right to continue that use. (The rules have just changed so if it was a Use starting now it would be 10 years). If you've not been using it for 4 years as a workshop and high light this to the LPA, if they were minded to they may ask you to apply for a retrospective Change of Use, which they could then reject.

 

Having partially repaired the barn and begun a new Use, if no one has complained, I'd suggest you could get on and rebuild it.  LPA's tend to only get involved when an issue is brought to their attention. Just rebuild the same shape and size with as similar as possible external materials.

Edited August 14 by IanR

[willow171]

Thank you for your reply.

The workshop use is not commercial, just somewhere for my husband to hide all his junk (sorry-tools). The previous owners were also using it for storage not agricultural. So it was never fully abandoned.

So probably best to keep quiet and rebuild. The original barn was concrete half up then wood and a clay roof tile, Do you think we would have to stick with this or could we change the building materials?

[IanR]

If there has been a continued use, then it may be worth a conversation with the LPA, as you are not at risk of losing the rights to that Use. Your LPA may have a Policy in their Adopted Local plan, that gives more information on how they may would approach it. You'd be searching for something like "replacement buildings in the countryside/green belt".

 

My LPA's policy is as follows:

 

This gives a little more flexibility than a like for like replacement.

 

Personally, if I was replacing like-for-like I wouldn't approach the LPA, knowing that if someone did complain I could put in a retrospective that would be approved. If I was going to rebuild materially different, I'd probably apply for planning.

Difficult to advise, my LPA has, over the last few years, made it more and more difficult to talk to anyone. To do similar I'd have to submit a pre-planning advice, just to speak with someone, then submit a planning app if they said it was needed. Hence if you are confident it would get approved, just get on and do it and wait for them to contact you.

 

The closer you are to the original, the less reasons you give them for a rejection.

Edited August 14 by IanR

[LSB]

I would say to rebuild to look as much as possible as it was previously, from a distance.

But, if you at any time are thinking about a dwelling then agricultural to dwelling is a well trodden path.  As IanR says though if you change the use to workshop then you will need to wait 10 years before you could ever consider converting.

 

By the way, there is no such category as 'countryside', they is agricultural, amenity and residential (including gardens) so I guess it's still agricultural if it was never changed, but that shouldn't make any difference to you using it.

 

[willow171]

17 minutes ago, LSB said:

I would say to rebuild to look as much as possible as it was previously, from a distance.

But, if you at any time are thinking about a dwelling then agricultural to dwelling is a well trodden path.  As IanR says though if you change the use to workshop then you will need to wait 10 years before you could ever consider converting.

 

By the way, there is no such category as 'countryside', they is agricultural, amenity and residential (including gardens) so I guess it's still agricultural if it was never changed, but that shouldn't make any difference to you using it.

 

Thank you. We have no intention of converting to a dwelling now or in the future. But I guess never say never. 

[willow171]

21 minutes ago, IanR said:

If there has been a continued use, then it may be worth a conversation with the LPA, as you are not at risk of losing the rights to that Use. Your LPA may have a Policy in their Adopted Local plan, that gives more information on how they may would approach it. You'd be searching for something like "replacement buildings in the countryside/green belt".

 

My LPA's policy is as follows:

 

This gives a little more flexibility than a like for like replacement.

 

Personally, if I was replacing like-for-like I wouldn't approach the LPA, knowing that if someone did complain I could put in a retrospective that would be approved. If I was going to rebuild materially different, I'd probably apply for planning.

Difficult to advise, my LPA has, over the last few years, made it more and more difficult to talk to anyone. To do similar I'd have to submit a pre-planning advice, just to speak with someone, then submit a planning app if they said it was needed. Hence if you are confident it would get approved, just get on and do it and wait for them to contact you.

 

The closer you are to the original, the less reasons you give them for a rejection.

Thank you, I will have a look for the LPA policy.

[Alan Ambrose]

I feel a little more cautious than some here. If the land isn’t actually residential curtilage then using it for garden-ish activities and workshop sounds not so legal. If you’ve been doing that for 7 years without challenge you may be able to claim it’s now residential. But, if not, you might not want to alert the LPA.

[joe90]

22 minutes ago, Alan Ambrose said:

I feel a little more cautious than some here.

I don’t, I would repair it as near original as possible and carry on using it like the previous owners, only if someone complains will the LPA get involved then you can say it was repaired and continual use.

[Temp]

4 hours ago, Alan Ambrose said:

I feel a little more cautious than some here. If the land isn’t actually residential curtilage then using it for garden-ish activities and workshop sounds not so legal. If you’ve been doing that for 7 years without challenge you may be able to claim it’s now residential. But, if not, you might not want to alert the LPA.

 

Unfortunately the planners have 10 years to initiate enforcement action when an unauthorized change of use has occurred.

 

If he or the previous owner have used it as a worship for nearly 10 years I would wait and meanwhile collect up as much evidence as possible. When you have good evidence file for a certificate of lawfulness on the grounds that they cannot initiate enforcement action.

 

They will try and prove the breech didn't occur until more recently by looking at street view or satellite images. So be sure you can prove it. Letters from a neighbour or previous owner stating facts might help.

 

Rebuilding now would/could attract attention from the planners that might be unwelcome. Typically this is triggered by an upset neighbour complaining.

 

Agricultural buildings can be constructed without Planning Permission in some cases but you would have to show it was necessary for an agricultural business. Some councils will say a farm cannot be a viable agricultural business under a certain size like 7 acres.

 

It's quite possible for the planners to decide the building has no officially sanctioned use.

 

Edited August 15 by Temp

[joe90]

36 minutes ago, Temp said:

when an unauthorized change of use has occurred.

But it’s continuing use is a workshop!!!!

[IanR]

43 minutes ago, Temp said:

Unfortunately the planners have 10 years to initiate enforcement action when an unauthorized change of use has occurred.

As long as the breech had started before April 25, 2024, then for Change of Use its 4 years continuous breech to become immune from enforcement. A new breech starting after April 25, 2024 would be 10 years.

 

It does sound like the breech is already beyond that time.

[Temp]

On 15/08/2024 at 21:12, joe90 said:

But it’s continuing use is a workshop!!!!

 

But is it legal use?

[Temp]

On 15/08/2024 at 21:23, IanR said:

As long as the breech had started before April 25, 2024, then for Change of Use its 4 years continuous breech to become immune from enforcement. A new breech starting after April 25, 2024 would be 10 years.

 

It does sound like the breech is already beyond that time.

 

Has there been a change in the regs because I thought they always had 10 years to enforce a change of use?

[IanR]

29 minutes ago, Temp said:

Has there been a change in the regs because I thought they always had 10 years to enforce a change of use?

 

There has been a change, but that now makes all new breeches 10 years, from 25.04.2024

 

Previously it was 4 years for a breech of planning control (accept for a new building, first used as residential, which was 10 years) and 10 years for a breech of planning condition.

 

32 minutes ago, Temp said:

But is it legal use?

 

Not without a Change of Use Approval, but it is immune from enforcement if it continued for more than 4 years.

Edited August 19 by IanR

[joe90]

29 minutes ago, Temp said:

But is it legal use?

As said above if no one complains the LPA won’t bother about it IMO. If it’s repaired as was “nothing to see here” ! New owners using as previous ones did. 🤷‍♂️ 

[willow171]

Thank you all.

So it seems the best course of action is to repair/rebuild as close to original in how it looks. And to keep quiet and hope no one complains.

And in the meantime I should gather evidence/aerial photos etc to prove it has been used as storage/workshop in previous years.