Joiner recommendations for bespoke passive front door

[willbish]

Good evening,

Could anybody recommend a joiner capable of building a bespoke passive front door and frame.

Today I met a local, well recommended joiner who I have no doubt is very capable but he has never built a piece to these requirements before.

I’d like the front door to be a statement piece and have a design but do not want to compromise on air tightness and thermal performance standards too much.

My current feeling is I may be better with someone not so local who has previous experience in this area.

First sketch of the design attached

front door sketch.pdf

[Simplysimon]

that's quite an ask, i hadn't even thought to make my own doors to passive spec. even the keyhole on a passive door doesn't go all the way through to avoid draughts so mortice lock needs to be thought out. don't know how many joiners would have the experience of a passive spec door.

[le-cerveau]

Internorm will do doors to any size spec you want.  I have a 1200mm wide 2235mm high front door, in a 1800mm wide frame (side panel).  Thermal performance is 0.73 W/m2K, it is a HT400.  You can put whatever glazing panels in you want.

[willbish]

I appreciate it’s an unusual ask for most joiners but I think achieving a decent level of air tightness is possible on a one off piece.

I’m envisaging double rebate with three weather seals. Hopefully two of these seals can be continuous, one may be incomplete to facilitate the hinges.

Obviously no protrusions through the door like mortise locks or letter boxes!

The locking arrangement will be an electronic strike release only.

I’m sure there’s a joiner out there that’s done something like this before...

[PeterW]

20 minutes ago, willbish said:

The locking arrangement will be an electronic strike release only.

 

Good luck getting house insurance with that....

 

Most insist on BS standard 5 lever locks or euro locks to the same standard. I doubt that any insurer would accept an electronic strike plate. 

[Jeremy Harris]

There will also be a problem with airtightness with an electronic lock, as the door will need multipoint latches to pull it tight to the seals all around.  I've not seen an electronically activated latch that includes actuators for latching the door at several locations and pulling it tight to the seals, but there are some commercial electronically operated handles that will allow a standard multipoint latch rail to be fitted, so the handle can  be pulled up to close the door tight to the seals, then electronically latched.

 

An alternative might be to have an external to the heated envelope draught lobby, with a normal multipoint latch airtight inner door, plus the feature front door, that doesn't then need to be super airtight.

 

I had a look at electronic locks both a couple of years ago, and just a week or so ago, as I would like to change our front door lock to one that doesn't need a key.  As @PeterW says, electronic strike plates are out as far as insurers go, plus there is no normal strike plate, as such, on a modern multipoint latch door mechanism for an airtight door, but there are a couple of electronic locks (not latch plates) that might meet the requirements of an insurer. 

 

The problem I ran into was that they can't be retrofitted to an existing door, as they are designed to work with a small range of spacings between the outer face of the door and the multipoint latch rail that runs up the whole height of the opening side of the door.  These latch rails are set at the centre point of a Euro lock barrel, or similar, and and has to be set into the door frame between the outer weather seal and the inner airtightness seal.  It may be that for a custom door you could arrange for the design to have the rail at the right place for the limited range these locks cover, but they are pricey.

 

It's probably worth having a good look at how passive house standard doors and seals work, then having a think about how you could sketch up something that a good joiner could build.  Some of the clever stuff is hidden, like the measures taken inside the frame to provide a thermal break between the inner and outer frame faces, as most of the heat loss in a decent door or window is through the frame, rather than the glazing.  For example, some passive doors use foam between the inner and outer frames, some use cork, but there will always have to be something to reduce the thermal bridge through the frame, and getting the detail of this right, whilst providing a structural fixing point for the latch rail up the whole length of the door opening face, needs some careful design work.

[caliwag]

There's an outfit up here in West Yorkshire called the 'Wooden Door company' who I have seen at Homebuilding and Renovating shows in Harrogate (next one first weekend in November)

website is doormerchants.co.uk...that makes them sound dodgy but they've been around for a few decades I think.

[le-cerveau]

If you want electronic locks the Internorm doors are available with half electronic or fully electronic latch's, these are multipoint and passive, but expensive!

[willbish]

Thanks for your input gents, I value your suggestions.

 

On 25/10/2017 at 22:38, PeterW said:

Good luck getting house insurance with that....

Yeh you’re right. I’ve never been one for contents insurance but compromising security is not my intention. Time for a rethink

 

On 26/10/2017 at 07:55, JSHarris said:

I've not seen an electronically activated latch that includes actuators for latching the door at several locations and pulling it tight to the seals,

 

Have you seen this JSHarris? Although your hurdles to retrofit would probably still exist even with this lock.

This product is not for sale in the UK yet, its predecessor the AV2 is and I think that is what I am going to go for.

As far as I am aware the 3 latches will hold the door against the seals. I have been looking for a product that combines latches and rollers but these are marketed at uPVC doors which are notorious for warping. The rollers do help seal the door to the frame but I understand this is not necessary with a timber door. The idea is to compress the seals not crush them!

 

On 26/10/2017 at 07:55, JSHarris said:

Some of the clever stuff is hidden, like the measures taken inside the frame to provide a thermal break between the inner and outer frame faces, as most of the heat loss in a decent door or window is through the frame, rather than the glazing. 

I’ve seen composite frames with insulation inside. I think there is only so far I can go with a timber frame. The door will be installed within the EWI layer and majority of frame will have some insulation in front. See detail attached.

I am concerned about thermal bridging at the sill, will be having a head scratch in the coming days on how best to minimise.

[Jeremy Harris]

Yes, I I've seen the Winkhaus lock, more than a little bit pricey!

 

Our doors are structurally timber, and PassivHaus spec.  They have an aluminium external skin, but this is not structurally a part of the door - the door is hung and fastened from the timber frame. 

 

It very definitely needs the latches and rollers, no question about it.  Our main air leaks during the blower test were from two doors that were not adjusted properly and just adjusting the pull-in rollers and the alignment of the front and the French windows removed these leaks.  The latches were all operating, but these do not pull the door in to the frame at all, the rollers have that function.  When you look at the latches, it's clear that they only move up and down and are a clearance fit in the latch slots, to allow the rollers enough room to pull the door seals tight.  This does need a fair bit of resistance to movement, as if the wind blows against an inward opening door there is a pretty significant force that is trying to push the door away from the seals.

[le-cerveau]

Internorm use the Winkhaus locks in their door series.

[willbish]

2 minutes ago, le-cerveau said:

Internorm use the Winkhaus locks in their door series.

 

Thanks, does that include their electronic latches too?

 

So Internorm use winkhaus, and winkhaus only manufacture electronic latches without rollers...

 

I’ve contacted Internorm distributors, awaiting their response. Does anybody on the forum have timber entrance doors without rollers?

[le-cerveau]

Yes, it does include the electronic versions.