Front yard

[JohnBishop]

Hi All,

I hope you are well. I hope you are enjoying premature summer in England, Scotland and Wales. I hope it stays like that.

If I didn't have enough on my plate already I commenced the work in my front yard. I started restoring the fence but then I realised there is too much overgrown grass to clean it properly so the thick lawn carpet intertwined with moss has been taken off.

I think I turn it into a driveway. I reckon 4/5 of these 40sqm is going to be grid and stone/gravel then 1/5 grass and a small tree or something like that.

We need to put a retaining wall (dwarf wall) to keep it level.
I think it would be good to improve the drainage a bit so I am thinking about the soaker way, potentially join it together with the existing one that goes under the concrete.

I also have this big lid that was installed I reckon when the house was build ~80-90 years ago. It goes at a weird angle. Not sure what is the purpose. The sewage goes on the other side of the building.
It looks like it's rust bonded. What would you recommend to use (e.g. a chemical). Ideally I don't want it to break in case it's still in use.
The lid is at an awkward angle but it's also the cast iron bit is above the pavement level.

I can see some people have these large trailers parked in their front yards. I think I I do the same and park it where "TRAILER" is written.
The trench you see on the picture is the Internet cable. I have to figure out if I put it deeper under the soaker way or above it. I am not sure if I have enough slack on it.

Please feel free to make any suggestions at this stage.
Thank you

Edited May 19 by JohnBishop

[Mr Punter]

You will probably need consent from the local council to make this into a driveway.  You may also need to have the kerb dropped at the road edge of the footpath and the path resurfaced, all by an approved / fully insured contractor.

 

Try harder to lift the chamber lid.  A couple of long lifting keys will help.

[JohnBishop]

3 hours ago, Mr Punter said:

You will probably need consent from the local council to make this into a driveway.  You may also need to have the kerb dropped at the road edge of the footpath and the path resurfaced, all by an approved / fully insured contractor.

 

Try harder to lift the chamber lid.  A couple of long lifting keys will help.

do you work for the council by any chance? 😁

[Temp]

+1

 

You will need to apply for a dropped kerb. This isnt just permission to lower the kerb, it also gives you legal permission to drive over the pavement.  I think it also stops the post office or cable companies putting post boxes, or similar on the pavement that could prevent you driving over it. 

 

How busy is the road? The council might not want you to reverse out if it's a busy road. They may insist on you being able to turn around in your front garden. What do the neighbours have?  

 

A few years ago the planing laws were changed to try and reduce flooding. This means that Planning Permission is required to pave a front garden unless you deal with all rainwater onsite. You should be fine with gravel but be careful what you put under it. You might consider MOT type 3 hardcore instead of MOT Type 1. I believe Type 3 is water permeable where as some versions of Type 1 can be like concrete.

 

Have a look at the Paving Expert website. See their index for everything related to paving and drainage.  Preparation is key to making a driveway that lasts. Pay attention to what they recommend you put under the grids/gravel.

 

https://www.pavingexpert.com/

 

https://www.pavingexpert.com/pavindex

 

The grids you mention come in different materials. I suspect some makes last longer than others when driven over regularly. 

Edited May 19 by Temp

[JohnBishop]

Thanks for your suggestions. Of course I am going to apply to the council for that and I was not planning to chisel the kerb myself 😆
From what I can see the neighbours on the opposite side (mirrored) of this semi-circle road got a lowered kerb.

[saveasteading]

12 hours ago, Temp said:

some makes last longer than others when driven over regularly. 

I'm currently organising maintenance on grids that have been car parking for 15 years. There is quite a lot of damage to the top, say 10mm, and some areas of slight sinking. 

Compared to tarmac or concrete, I'm really happy with it. With regular maintenance in topping up the gravel, it would have incurred less damage. Underneath is type I but it slopes to a French drain.

This photo is the worst area by far as it had most use. The gravel was larger when originally laid.

[JohnBishop]

37 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

I'm currently organising maintenance on grids that have been car parking for 15 years. There is quite a lot of damage to the top, say 10mm, and some areas of slight sinking. 

Compared to tarmac or concrete, I'm really happy with it. With regular maintenance in topping up the gravel, it would have incurred less damage. Underneath is type I but it slopes to a French drain.

This photo is the worst area by far as it had most use. The gravel was larger when originally laid.

right, where did you source the grid?
I can see some grids have their own barrier so the gravel does not mix with the sand and MOT aggregate underneath.

You said about French drain. What would you recommend?
In my case the house is sitting pretty much on sand - no clay so I should not be too paranoid about rainwater however I would want to reduce moisture around the house by implementing this French drain or these plastic/aluminium drains.

On the picture the soil on the surface is not original, it has been accumulated by previous owners over the many years which is great if I go for grass otherwise only moss and some weeds grow on the sand. The front yard point in the direction of north-north-west.
The bottom of the trench is sand. I will have to remove some of the soil, quite a lot of it and replace with MOT.
I am thinking if I need the retaining wall all the way or only where the aggregate/grid is going then slope it down where the grass is going to be. Initially I though about building the wall about a foot away from the concrete but now I think I bring it closer. The gap will only be for the French drain or other drain.

Edited May 20 by JohnBishop

[JohnBishop]

13 hours ago, Temp said:

+1

 

You will need to apply for a dropped kerb. This isnt just permission to lower the kerb, it also gives you legal permission to drive over the pavement.  I think it also stops the post office or cable companies putting post boxes, or similar on the pavement that could prevent you driving over it. 

 

How busy is the road? The council might not want you to reverse out if it's a busy road. They may insist on you being able to turn around in your front garden. What do the neighbours have?  

 

A few years ago the planing laws were changed to try and reduce flooding. This means that Planning Permission is required to pave a front garden unless you deal with all rainwater onsite. You should be fine with gravel but be careful what you put under it. You might consider MOT type 3 hardcore instead of MOT Type 1. I believe Type 3 is water permeable where as some versions of Type 1 can be like concrete.

 

Have a look at the Paving Expert website. See their index for everything related to paving and drainage.  Preparation is key to making a driveway that lasts. Pay attention to what they recommend you put under the grids/gravel.

 

https://www.pavingexpert.com/

 

https://www.pavingexpert.com/pavindex

 

The grids you mention come in different materials. I suspect some makes last longer than others when driven over regularly. 

by the way the road is not busy, it's not the main road, maybe ~100 cars a day?
I agree MOT Type1 once it dries it hardens. I think it's because it has more fine stuff in it.

Edited May 20 by JohnBishop

[saveasteading]

2 hours ago, JohnBishop said:

Type1 once it dries it hardens. I think it's because it has more fine stuff in it.

Yes but not just that. It is a precisely balanced mix of coarseness so that it is almost as dense as the original rock,  once compacted.  Like concrete except not bonded together.

A vibrating plate will shake the fines into any gaps.

If it is limestone then wetness and drying will paste it together a bit.

 

The fines are omitted from the type 3 recipe so that water can run through and it can hold rainwater, but it is much less durable. So a decent option for a driveway, with a gravel grid on it. 

[saveasteading]

2 hours ago, JohnBishop said:

where did you source the grid?

I can't remember. Direct from a supplier though, so Google it. You will need a medium duty grade.

As you are on sand (presumably rain just disappears now) , you won't need any fancy drains. Much better just to let the rain dribble through, over  the whole area.

The gravel itself will hold the first 10mm or so of rain.

[Alan Ambrose]

If it helps any, these are the grids I'm looking at atm for heavy duty:

 

Option	Link	Size	Area	Volume	Depth		Weight	Cost
								ex VAT
		M			CM		M^-2	M^-2
Duratex	https://www.duratex.co.uk/permeable-paving-grids/173-heavy-duty-permeable-paving-grid-80mm-thick.html	.5x.5			8		12.8	36.00
Truckpave 80	https://grassmats.co.uk/product/truckpave-80/	.6x.4			8		12.8	41.46
Bodpave 85	https://grassmats.co.uk/product/bodpave-85/	1x1			8.5		6.2	16.69
Truckgrid	https://www.sure-green.com/truckgrid-max-heavy-duty-permeable-paver.html	.6x.4			8		9.0	46.01
Bodpave 40	https://grassmats.co.uk/product/bodpave-40-per-m2/	1x1			4		4.5	13.95
EcoGrid E50	https://ecotradecounter.co.uk/collections/permeable-paving-systems/products/the-indestructible-ground-reinforcement-grid-e50	.33 x .33			5		9.6	19.98

 

You might find some of these a bit too heavy duty, but I like to do these things only once. I also learned that the weight / m^2 is a good proxy for 'strength' and you can largely ignore the manufacturer's 'acceptable loading' figures. For heavy loading, the sharp nature of the gravel is important.

[JohnBishop]

3 hours ago, Alan Ambrose said:

If it helps any, these are the grids I'm looking at atm for heavy duty:

 

Option	Link	Size	Area	Volume	Depth		Weight	Cost
								ex VAT
		M			CM		M^-2	M^-2
Duratex	https://www.duratex.co.uk/permeable-paving-grids/173-heavy-duty-permeable-paving-grid-80mm-thick.html	.5x.5			8		12.8	36.00
Truckpave 80	https://grassmats.co.uk/product/truckpave-80/	.6x.4			8		12.8	41.46
Bodpave 85	https://grassmats.co.uk/product/bodpave-85/	1x1			8.5		6.2	16.69
Truckgrid	https://www.sure-green.com/truckgrid-max-heavy-duty-permeable-paver.html	.6x.4			8		9.0	46.01
Bodpave 40	https://grassmats.co.uk/product/bodpave-40-per-m2/	1x1			4		4.5	13.95
EcoGrid E50	https://ecotradecounter.co.uk/collections/permeable-paving-systems/products/the-indestructible-ground-reinforcement-grid-e50	.33 x .33			5		9.6	19.98

 

You might find some of these a bit too heavy duty, but I like to do these things only once. I also learned that the weight / m^2 is a good proxy for 'strength' and you can largely ignore the manufacturer's 'acceptable loading' figures. For heavy loading, the sharp nature of the gravel is important.

Thank you. Yeah I saw these medium load grids and they look fragile, won't last.
Have you seen Nidagravel promoted by Charlie DIYte?
https://www.nidagraveluk.co.uk/gravel-stabilisation-grids/
 

Nidagravel heavy duty one is 5.2kg per 0.5sqm = 10.2kg per sqm (£14.48 per m² + VAT) but only 40mm thick.

they also make these grass reinforcement grids
https://www.nidagraveluk.co.uk/grass-reinforcement-grids/
actually I could do some of it like that. You can park a car or double park but only temporarily but you still have grass. What do you think?

Edited May 20 by JohnBishop

[Alan Ambrose]

Ah I think "Grid weight empty: 5.2 kg per sqm" for NG040. Nice that you can buy them in small quantities though - you can't with all.

 

So, I'm thinking similar-ish spec to the Bodpave 40? I have not looked at every product, so there might be others out there too.

 

I'm looking at stuff that will potentially take a concrete truck during my build, so I may be targeting higher loads than you.

[saveasteading]

33 minutes ago, Alan Ambrose said:

potentially take a concrete truck during my build, 

Don't. Unless the ground is dry and strong,  or you put in a lot of stone underneath , a concrete wagon will go straight through it. I've seen that on grids but also on tarmac that had supported cars for many years.

Just use lots of stone on a geomembrane. Add the grids later.

[JohnBishop]

4 hours ago, Alan Ambrose said:

Ah I think "Grid weight empty: 5.2 kg per sqm" for NG040. Nice that you can buy them in small quantities though - you can't with all.

 

So, I'm thinking similar-ish spec to the Bodpave 40? I have not looked at every product, so there might be others out there too.

 

I'm looking at stuff that will potentially take a concrete truck during my build, so I may be targeting higher loads than you.

Yes, you're right it's more lightweight. The size of the grid is 0.5sqm I though it's 5.2kg per grid.

This EcoGrid E50 looks solid for 5cm of thickness.
Why would I want to go for 8cm thick grids?

[Alan Ambrose]

Only for v heavy duty or v long life.

[JohnBishop]

This EcoGrid E50 looks cool. It can be joined with Bloxx to mix gravel filled grids with stone filled grids.

[JohnBishop]

We dug out a trench and there is sand pretty close to the surface. If I remove the surface soil do I really have to dig out another 25-30cm (for 50mm thick grids) then put down MOT Type3 in place of sand or just top it up with MOT aggregate?

Edited May 21 by JohnBishop

[saveasteading]

You'll probably be OK on the sandy stuff. But check your finished level out for tandituons to existing surfaces and damp courses.

[JohnBishop]

 This is what I have come up with. The existing soaker way goes perpendicular towards the gate (on the other side of the door pedestal), I reckon it connects with that drain somehow but I am still waiting for the lid keys to open it. I also poured some coke over it few times hoping it will dissolve the rust. It looks like it's bonded solid. It is at an angle which is a bit strange.
The other thing is that this French drain between the retaining wall and the existing concrete is taking space. The car is 455cm so it will be sticking out over the retaining wall or parked at an angle. Do I really need it? Or should I make it narrower e.g. 5cm rather than 15cm.
 

Edited May 22 by JohnBishop

[saveasteading]

Soakaway must not connect to a main drain. The whole point is that your drain doesn't reach streams or sewers and add to flooding. It all adds up.

[JohnBishop]

22 hours ago, saveasteading said:

Soakaway must not connect to a main drain. The whole point is that your drain doesn't reach streams or sewers and add to flooding. It all adds up.

Right so soakaway is a dead way. The sewage line is on the other side of the building so still wondering what is this manhole for.

What flexible pipe should I use for the French drain? How is it called?

[JohnBishop]

In this article I can see the spec for a retaining wall https://www.pavingexpert.com/featur03#retain
 

I can see I need a drainage board. This wall is going to be ~25cm high + 15cm concrete footing. Should I use bricks (using English or Flemish bond) or blocks and decorative bricks on top? I mean apart from visual difference is there any structural difference?
I understand the retaining wall should be at least 20cm wide (2 bricks bonded or a block).

Edited May 23 by JohnBishop

[saveasteading]

7 hours ago, JohnBishop said:

What flexible pipe should I use for the French drain

perforated drain pipe 

there is posh stuff that allows precise flow,

and there is cheap stuff that is tricky to  get exact.

 

wrap it with geomembrane so that roots and silt don't get into the pipe, then surround in gravel.

 

 

 

[JohnBishop]

1 hour ago, saveasteading said:

perforated drain pipe 

there is posh stuff that allows precise flow,

and there is cheap stuff that is tricky to  get exact.

 

wrap it with geomembrane so that roots and silt don't get into the pipe, then surround in gravel.

 

 

 

what geomembrane for domestic use? this is not a weed barrier right? I have some thick weed membrane left.
Is it something I can get from a DYI store or better order online? I will order the pipe online as this will not fit into my car anyway.

Edited May 23 by JohnBishop