Do I need planning permission for adding a new boundary wall and gate ?

[Achu]

Hi guys, I need advice regarding adding a new gate and boundary wall for our recently approved planning application for a new rear entrance to park our car. 

Due to the pressure from the neighbours objections and the planning process, I didn't pay much attention to the drawing until I read the planning appeal decision from the planning inspectorate. I will explain the situation once again to those who don't know my situation. We have applied for a retrospective planning application for conversion or garrage and creating hard standing at the rear of the garden. The neighbours objected to it, and it went to the planning committee twice, and the committee rejected the application.

We went for an appeal and won; now we have the license for creating dropped kerbs, and the work is in progress. I recently went through the approval letter and noticed the wording. 

The development hereby permitted shall be carried out in accordance with the following approved plans: PLN01; PLN02; PLN03; PLN06C; PLN07A and PLN08.

As per the plan, the architect didn't add any gates to the new entrance, and there are also no gates to go inside our property after parking the car. I also did not pay much attention to this matter, as our main goal was to get permission. For your reference, I have attached one approved plan.

I have asked for advice from another member, Joe 90, regarding this issue, and he mentioned that this is a material change. I just need more clarity regarding this if someone else has any extensive knowledge. I have read somewhere that we don't need planning permission to add a gate or a wall if the height is less than 1 metre. I don't know whether it applies to my situation. 
Anyway, I have sent an inquiry to the planning department and am waiting for their reply. So I wanted to know your guys advice also.

My plan is to use the new driveway without the boundary around the car, as shown in the plan, so I could park more cars inside. 

If we have to go with another application, I am sure the neighbours will again object to the application and it will go to the committee.

Sorry for the long essay. 

Plan .pdf

Edited May 12 by Achu

[ToughButterCup]

1 hour ago, Achu said:

...

Anyway, I have sent an inquiry to the planning department and am waiting for their reply. So I wanted to know your guys advice also.

...

 

Apply and wait.

My guess is the same as @joe90's. Its a Material Matter. And, unless the issue is clear-cut, then the answer will always be to err on the side of caution. You could spend a bit of time looking for similar applications on your Council's Planning website - has anyone applied to do something similar - or not? If they have, there's your answer. If not, thats a hint you might get away without formal Permission.

 

Thinking about what appears to be the local micropolitics, it may be better -anyway- to apply and get on with other stuff until the Council makes a decision.  Don't be too concerned about neighbourhood objection: they need to make sure their objection is Material (that bloody word again 🤨), and Planners are used to pointless objections. Immaterial arguments are (should be)  automatically rejected.

 

Please remember, we are interested (some would say nosey) amateurs. We are not experts. 

[joe90]

If I remember correctly the neighbours objection was against losing on street parking which has been settled, any other change will not effect that point.

[Achu]

1 hour ago, joe90 said:

If I remember correctly the neighbours objection was against losing on street parking which has been settled, any other change will not effect that point.

That’s what I am also thinking; there shouldn’t be any other reasons that could affect them if we created a wall and a gate, I guess. I hope there is still some way to sort this out, isn't there? Maybe we can submit another application or something like that. 

[joe90]

if you want a street gate it will have to be a slider as you will not be allowed a gate opening onto the pavement/road. I have just built one using kit available on the internet.

[Achu]

14 minutes ago, joe90 said:

if you want a street gate it will have to be a slider as you will not be allowed a gate opening onto the pavement/road. I have just built one using kit available on the internet.

Yes, I meant sliders. I have also seen some on eBay. From where did you buy that? Do you have a link?

Thanks 

[joe90]

I built my own gates and bought motor, track, remotes etc from EBay, plenty out there. If you want auto you will need an electric supply but you could have manual ones. The only problem you may have is planners usually want gates set back from the road so you don’t block the road whilst opening the gates, but electric ones would preclude this I recon.

 

[Ferdinand]

OK. I would not particularly like this one (I don't like gardens covered in tarmacadam), and I am an activist for safe walking and wheeling, so I'll try and give you an objective assessment as someone who might be objecting like your neighbours.
 

Yes, you would need sliding gates as you will not be allowed to obstruct the public highway (there's an offence in iirc the Highways Act). If your drive is going to be longer you may have space for inward folding gates, but that would depend on your amount of vehicles.

I think you are looking at what is called a Material Amendment, which you apply for after a grant of planning permission. There is a separate type of process if it is Planning Conditions you want to vary.

I think you have done well to get approval for a drive that is only 5m long on the approved plan, as that is very short (my car is 4.87m long, and 5m will not fit afaik any of the crew cab tonka trucks without obstructing the pavement).

TBH a competent planner they should have caught that as it builds in future conflict, but local government has been stripped to the bone in the last decade. One of their principles is to consider potential future use, which imo they have not done here; perhaps the planner was in short trousers.

First time round I'd have objected to the short 5m length on the basis of the risk of pavement blocking if you or a future owner has what are now normal size vehicles >5m long. If something is possible, there is always some future hoon who will do it. Ironically that is closer to what you want to do 😉. I think that such an objection may caused them to make you make it 6m or 7m long.

Were you to apply for such an amendment making it 7m long, I would have written a letter of support for that aspect.

The gate geometry, and entrance width to allow practical access for multiple cars, looks potentially very tight, so I would perhaps suggest getting an electric gate man in 'to quote' and advise you what will be practical - then checking carefully that all the manoeuvres you might need to do (eg going past the corners of all the cars that are already in there).

If you have neighbours who are watching closely, you need your ducks in a row and probably need to identify everything in your application that you are doing.

It would depend on how good they are at doing research into planning requirements, identifying and sticking to relevant planning matters, and writing objections - or they may employ a planning consultant to write their objection.

Here are my things I would have objected to, or tried to ensure that you got good enough so as not to potentially inconvenience neighbours and pavement users.

1 - Number of vehicle movements reversing in or out, and more vehicles turning in the street. That may be OK with the one / one and a half off road spaces you have approved. If it suddenly become 4 or 5 spaces the Council may think that is too much.

2 - Visibility of the pavement (eg seeing wheelchair users and small children, say 4 or 5 years old, when reversing out). They can't regulate to make you go in forward. Similar concerns to point 1.

That also speaks to the height of your wall. Could you use railings for a better view?

3 - Drainage. It looks like a principal (ie road facing) elevation so your surfaces should ideally be permeable, or you will need to demonstrate management of runoff within your own boundaries.

4 - Noise?

 

5 - If your approved plan includes an area of "garden", as it does, I think your neighbours will be able to complain to enforcement after the fact with a hope of success if you do not implement the scheme, who may enforce on you. Councils are likely to view the garden as a mitigation for the damage done by more tarmac area - so I think you need to be clear about what will actually be there for your future protection.

I hope that helps - and that you end up with something that works for everyone, with no permanent conflict.

Ferdinand

[DevilDamo]

Unless I am missing something, but what’s stopping you from erecting a 1m high gate? Are your PD rights still intact?

 

Edit: I’m also confused as to what you secured approval for as your post appeared to mention a garage conversion but your drawing just shows a garage… or is it a driveway with a fence around it?

Edited May 12 by DevilDamo

[Achu]

22 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

OK. I would not particularly like this one (I don't like gardens covered in tarmacadam), and I am an activist for safe walking and wheeling, so I'll try and give you an objective assessment as someone who might be objecting like your neighbours.
 

Yes, you would need sliding gates as you will not be allowed to obstruct the public highway (there's an offence in iirc the Highways Act). If your drive is going to be longer you may have space for inward folding gates, but that would depend on your amount of vehicles.

I think you are looking at what is called a Material Amendment, which you apply for after a grant of planning permission. There is a separate type of process if it is Planning Conditions you want to vary.

I think you have done well to get approval for a drive that is only 5m long on the approved plan, as that is very short (my car is 4.87m long, and 5m will not fit afaik any of the crew cab tonka trucks without obstructing the pavement).

TBH a competent planner they should have caught that as it builds in future conflict, but local government has been stripped to the bone in the last decade. One of their principles is to consider potential future use, which imo they have not done here; perhaps the planner was in short trousers.

First time round I'd have objected to the short 5m length on the basis of the risk of pavement blocking if you or a future owner has what are now normal size vehicles >5m long. If something is possible, there is always some future hoon who will do it. Ironically that is closer to what you want to do 😉. I think that such an objection may caused them to make you make it 6m or 7m long.

Were you to apply for such an amendment making it 7m long, I would have written a letter of support for that aspect.

The gate geometry, and entrance width to allow practical access for multiple cars, looks potentially very tight, so I would perhaps suggest getting an electric gate man in 'to quote' and advise you what will be practical - then checking carefully that all the manoeuvres you might need to do (eg going past the corners of all the cars that are already in there).

If you have neighbours who are watching closely, you need your ducks in a row and probably need to identify everything in your application that you are doing.

It would depend on how good they are at doing research into planning requirements, identifying and sticking to relevant planning matters, and writing objections - or they may employ a planning consultant to write their objection.

Here are my things I would have objected to, or tried to ensure that you got good enough so as not to potentially inconvenience neighbours and pavement users.

1 - Number of vehicle movements reversing in or out, and more vehicles turning in the street. That may be OK with the one / one and a half off road spaces you have approved. If it suddenly become 4 or 5 spaces the Council may think that is too much.

2 - Visibility of the pavement (eg seeing wheelchair users and small children, say 4 or 5 years old, when reversing out). They can't regulate to make you go in forward. Similar concerns to point 1.

That also speaks to the height of your wall. Could you use railings for a better view?

3 - Drainage. It looks like a principal (ie road facing) elevation so your surfaces should ideally be permeable, or you will need to demonstrate management of runoff within your own boundaries.

4 - Noise?

 

5 - If your approved plan includes an area of "garden", as it does, I think your neighbours will be able to complain to enforcement after the fact with a hope of success if you do not implement the scheme, who may enforce on you. Councils are likely to view the garden as a mitigation for the damage done by more tarmac area - so I think you need to be clear about what will actually be there for your future protection.

I hope that helps - and that you end up with something that works for everyone, with no permanent conflict.

Ferdinand

Hi Ferdinand thanks for the advice , we have already done vehicle tracking and visibility splay by a highway consultant. The highway and council don’t have any objections. 

If we get approval for a gate, I will definitely go for a sliding one, as you advised. 

My question is that the council doesn't say how many cars we can park, but what if we park more cars if we have room inside? Can the council force us to create a separate boundary around the car, as shown in the plan? If not, we can park two cars inside, can't we? Sorry if I was wrong. 

[Achu]

10 minutes ago, DevilDamo said:

Unless I am missing something, but what’s stopping you from erecting a 1m high gate? Are your PD rights still intact?

 

Edit: I’m also confused as to what you secured approval for as your post appeared to mention a garage conversion but your drawing just shows a garage… or is it a driveway with a fence around it?

Hi, Yes, the initial application was the conversion of the garage and the creation of parking spaces in the rear garden. The neighbours objected to the application as they said the creation of off-street parking spaces would result in a loss of on-street parking. The committee rejected our application, and we went for an appeal and won. Now we are in the process of creating a new driveway and hard-standing to park the car, but the level of the road and our garden are different; the garden is approximately 10–15 cm higher than the road. So what I thought was that anyway, we are creating a new drive way at the back, so I decided to make the whole area at the same level as the parking space so we could park more cars inside. Then I recently noticed in the plan that it’s just shown one car parked inside, and there is a boundary wall that separates the new parking space from the garden. Also, there is no boundary wall or gate shown in the plan at the front of the new parking space, which could result in anyone parking their car in our car if the driveway is empty. 
 

So I need to clarify if we are allowed to create a boundary wall and a sliding gate at the front without submitting another application or with this current permission. 

 

[DevilDamo]

Providing you have PD rights, you can erect something up to 1m high. The additional caveat to that is if you’re replacing something that already exceed 1m. So if there already was a 2m high fence then technically, you can erect a 2m high gate in its place…

 

https://www.planningportal.co.uk/permission/common-projects/fences-gates-and-garden-walls/planning-permission

[Achu]

4 hours ago, DevilDamo said:

Providing you have PD rights, you can erect something up to 1m high. The additional caveat to that is if you’re replacing something that already exceed 1m. So if there already was a 2m high fence then technically, you can erect a 2m high gate in its place…

 

https://www.planningportal.co.uk/permission/common-projects/fences-gates-and-garden-walls/planning-permission

Thank you for this. I have sent an email to the planning department anyway, and let’s see what they say. I understand now that erecting something up to 1 M comes under PD rights, but in our case, the garrage conversation along with this application was supposed to come under PD rights, but it was lifted due to some special clause in the original planning application when our house was built. I remember the planning officer once saying there is some clause for fence panels and walls as well as for our house. 

[scottishjohn]

On 12/05/2024 at 18:28, joe90 said:

The only problem you may have is planners usually want gates set back from the road so you don’t block the road whilst opening the gates, but electric ones would preclude this I recon.

yes my planning states that gates must be 6m back from road -to allow gettingo ut of car to open gates and not blocking road