GemmaG Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 (edited) We have a timber frame house with brick skin. Our French doors were getting damp on the plastered reveals we believe to be cold bridging as the doors are in the outer skin. We hired a builder to put in new doors and open up the reveal to insulate and help against cold bridging. We have been working during installation and not been able to check every detail but he has removed the original timber cavity closer, shoved 4 inches of Celotex into the cavity and closed up the reveal with plasterboard and plastered. When I asked him did he fit a cavity closer he asked me to define what I meant as he hasn’t heard of them. Builder for 40 years There’s a huge draught coming round the skirting and it’s freezing. Is our only option to hire someone else to cut it al away again, pull out insulation and retrofit a cavity closer? Can they be retrofitted? Thank you Edited January 21 by GemmaG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russell griffiths Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 You need a few things, but first you need to get all these answers and collate them so you can get a system installed that will do what you want. Then you need to tell your installer exactly how it must be done, without pictures we are guessing a bit, so it might take a few days to get the exact remedy for this. Timberframe house with a brick skin, the chances are that the timber he ripped out was actually a fire stop, these are installed at window and door reveals to prevent the spread of fire within the cavity. They can also act as a cavity closer. The chances are your cavity is cold and draughty so the block of timber was holding the draft at bay, by removing this and fitting insulation badly he’s allowed the cold to whistle behind the plasterboard and come in at any tiny hole. You need to find a method to fix 4 things fire stopping damp from outside to inside cold from the cavity cold from the outer brickwork you might find one one of the new fangled cavity closers will do all of these when fitted correctly or you might find they will do a couple of the points and you need to add something else to complete it properly. You might find you you don’t need fire stopping on the ground floor doors. Someone on here will will be able to clarify that. Im just trying to get the ball rolling for you. Just to throw a spanner in the works, did you move the door to Within the insulated part of the house or are the still in the cold brickwork. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GemmaG Posted January 21 Author Share Posted January 21 The doors are still in the cold brickwork but set back further than before. We thought the cold bridging to start with was down to the location of the doors being flush with the outside. The hinges actually set out of the wall. We used a builder as we wanted to move the door positions backwards and window fitters would not do it. Here are some pictures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GemmaG Posted January 21 Author Share Posted January 21 (edited) The last photo shows the original doors on the lounge set flush… unfortunately the builders have done not just one but two sets. Lounge and kitchen. Edited January 21 by GemmaG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ETC Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 It would be better to place the doors (and windows for that matter) in line with the back of the outer leaf with a vertical DPC. You will also need cavity barriers to the perimeter of the opening. TF normally uses a timber batten but you can use bagged cavity barriers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andehh Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 (edited) "When I asked him did he fit a cavity closer he asked me to define what I meant as he hasn’t heard of them. Builder for 40 years " That really boils my blood, (expletive deleted)ing builders and their shitty attitude and fly by night nature. It would have been negligible cost and effort for him to use them. If it makes you feel any better we had a window fitter who was incompetent, lazy with a shit attitude to boot. Carpenters ended up finishing the window installation and fixing his faults, and they did a brilliant job in comparison. Edited January 21 by Andehh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GemmaG Posted January 21 Author Share Posted January 21 15 minutes ago, ETC said: It would be better to place the doors (and windows for that matter) in line with the back of the outer leaf with a vertical DPC. You will also need cavity barriers to the perimeter of the opening. TF normally uses a timber batten but you can use bagged cavity barriers. The windows of the house are all set back in the timber frame but to do that with these doors would be a huge job as it would leave the block work above them all on show. Would these cavity closers work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ETC Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 You need 1/2HRFR. Will these give it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GemmaG Posted January 21 Author Share Posted January 21 14 minutes ago, Andehh said: "When I asked him did he fit a cavity closer he asked me to define what I meant as he hasn’t heard of them. Builder for 40 years " That really boils my blood, (expletive deleted)ing builders and their shitty attitude and fly by night nature. It would have been negligible cost and effort for him to use them. If it makes you feel any better we had a window fitter who was incompetent, lazy with a shit attitude to boot. Carpenters ended up finishing the window installation and fixing his faults, and they did a brilliant job in comparison. He’d already plasterboarded up when I asked him to remove it and use the right thing.. had to show him what to use and how but he couldn’t get it to fit so I was put on the spot and just given the option of putting the insulation back in but less of it. i didn’t know what to say because I’m not a builder!! How do I get the right person because I’ve lost trust in myself to find the right one. we had multiple window fitter quotes but none would move the doors back like we wanted and these guys would plus live locally, recommended and fensa registered. Want to just pay them for the job and start over with someone else but ideally leaving the doors where they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GemmaG Posted January 21 Author Share Posted January 21 1 minute ago, ETC said: You need 1/2HRFR. Will these give it? What’s that? Link or picture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ETC Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 Plus you need to sort out how water is getting inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ETC Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 Take out the PIR and put a timber batten to close the cavity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andehh Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 Could they Rockwool behind, timber battern in, fire rated expanding foam sealing it all in tight, then plasterboard over the top? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GemmaG Posted January 21 Author Share Posted January 21 13 minutes ago, ETC said: Plus you need to sort out how water is getting inside. We believe the issues was condensation. A dehumidifier has helped massively get us down from 75% to 50%. But again we chose a builder because if we had penetrating wet they could have helped supposedly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GemmaG Posted January 21 Author Share Posted January 21 14 minutes ago, ETC said: Take out the PIR and put a timber batten to close the cavity. Would that be attached to the timber frame, go over the cavity and touch the bricks or keep it off the bricks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GemmaG Posted January 21 Author Share Posted January 21 9 minutes ago, Andehh said: Could they Rockwool behind, timber battern in, fire rated expanding foam sealing it all in tight, then plasterboard over the top? I don’t know that expanding foam and rockwool is safe against the timber frame? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ETC Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 (edited) 3 minutes ago, GemmaG said: Would that be attached to the timber frame, go over the cavity and touch the bricks or keep it off the bricks? It should be placed behind a vertical DPC to protect it and as far as I know fixed to the timber frame. Edited January 21 by ETC 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ETC Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 A few pieces of information. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kandgmitchell Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 You will see that the photo's do not look like the drawn detail. If the photo's show the "after" job then the potentially damp brickwork is exposed inside the house and will track damp into any lining if no damp proofing is done. As mentioned the cavity needs closing around the opening for fire purposes and this can be done with timber. At the same time a dpc can be fitted between that batten and the brickwork and then tucked behind the door frame. By all means then foam up all the tiny gaps before reinstating the plasterboard lining. You could recess the batten and then fit an insulated closer but with the frame forward of the cavity this will always be a cold bridge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GemmaG Posted January 22 Author Share Posted January 22 Thank you. The cold bridging was the reason we brought the doors inwards some. They have come back today and silicones around the skirting board. Given up trying to get them to understand what I am saying with the cavity.. it’s all plastered in and hidden now. They did do a vertical dpc over the insulation but that’s not gonna help with the cold or it being fire safe but at least I’ll get a fensa certificate for the whole bodge!! If I want the insulation ripped out and the cavity closed properly do I need a builder? I’m worried il get the right answers again and end up back in this situation again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GemmaG Posted January 23 Author Share Posted January 23 On 21/01/2024 at 19:01, ETC said: A few pieces of information. just looking through these and trying to get my head around them but they all show the window/door in the correct position. Our doors are entirely in the brick skin.. the open cavity is within the house just plastered over. Looking into new builders but so hard to know who to trust after all this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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