York Heatpumps - any experience?

[Beelbeebub]

Has anyone got any experience with York Heatpumps?

 

BRS seem to a be a UK partner for York, who seem to be a large US aircon manufacturer 

 

https://brsheatpumps.co.uk/products/  

 

Their monoblock range seem very compact and also very competitively priced. 

 

What's the catch? Is there a catch?

 

I'm looking to start refitting some flats I manage that are currently using storage heaters.  The tenants are complaining it's costing them a fortune (£100 a week!).

 

I'm limited in what I can do on the fabric side for various reasons.

 

It seems that using a heat pump would be an obvious win, even if the efficiency isn't spectacular, it would still be cheaper than storage heaters.

 

I am considering an A2A multisplit.

 

My one concern is the systems are tightly integrated.  You are tied to a certain manufacturer for parts and servicing for the entire system. You could end up needing to replace the entire system because you can't get a part for a single unit.

 

With a wet system the emitters are more of a commodity, and the various parts can be more "mixed and matched".

 

But the cost of wet systems is really high and the outdoor units tend to be huge.  Hence the interest in the York.  

 

 

[HughF]

Judging by the controller picture, these are OEMd by Midea...

 

For flats, I would go for an a2a VRF multi head unit from a commercial supplier (Daikin), and a sunamp or direct UVC for the hot water.

[SteamyTea]

2 hours ago, Beelbeebub said:

The tenants are complaining it's costing them a fortune (£100 a week!)

 

2 hours ago, Beelbeebub said:

it would still be cheaper than storage heaters.

Not with that sort of claim.

 

I suspect they topped up with £100 worth of prepaid electricty one week, and then claim it lasts a week.

I ran into this problem when I was monitoring some social housing.

[JohnMo]

It may not be a win for the people living with the ASHP, the storage heater uses cheap rate electric, it is likely the ASHP will use peak rate. Unless flow temperature is very low sub 35 at all times, it is likely to cost more.  Especially if they stay with E7 tariff.

 

As @SteamyTea says £100 every week is unlikely. If it is real an ASHP is unlikely to fix the problem. Maybe a service of the storage heaters would be a better solution.

[Beelbeebub]

1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

 

Not with that sort of claim.

 

I suspect they topped up with £100 worth of prepaid electricty one week, and then claim it lasts a week.

I ran into this problem when I was monitoring some social housing.

It's not a prepaid meter, but i suspect there is some sort of FUBAR with the billing and EON are asking way too much.

 

[Beelbeebub]

1 hour ago, JohnMo said:

It may not be a win for the people living with the ASHP, the storage heater uses cheap rate electric, it is likely the ASHP will use peak rate. Unless flow temperature is very low sub 35 at all times, it is likely to cost more.  Especially if they stay with E7 tariff.

 

As @SteamyTea says £100 every week is unlikely. If it is real an ASHP is unlikely to fix the problem. Maybe a service of the storage heaters would be a better solution.

Good point. I did a quick napkin study.

 

Right now EON E7 is 40pkwh/14pkwh day/night

Standard tariff is 30pkwh

 

So as long as the SCOP is greater than 2 (which should be doable) the tenant will end up ahead.  That ignores the advantage of lower day rates for things like electric shower etc.

 

Servicing the storage heaters doesn't really do anything.  In their favour there is bugger all to go wrong.  The main issue is the old one of leaking all the heat away in the day and having none at night.  The only way we've found to get around this is to replace them with new ones which do, to be fair, have better insulation.  But they cost £700+ each and are only marginally better.  Plus the fancy electronic "predictive" system that they rely on to get better efficiency, makes them harder for tenants to understand and use so we get lots of "call backs" to sort out. I also worry there is more to go wrong. 

[Beelbeebub]

3 hours ago, HughF said:

Judging by the controller picture, these are OEMd by Midea...

 

For flats, I would go for an a2a VRF multi head unit from a commercial supplier (Daikin), and a sunamp or direct UVC for the hot water.

I have got a quote for that.  I'd keep the hot water system as is (electric shower and immersion tank - though I may ditch the immersion tank for a direct water heater)

 

I am tempted

 

My only concerns are

1) the Daikin units show a minimum external temp of -15C.  We don't get that temp very often, maybe once every couple of years, but it makes me nervous of the heating system shutting down exactly when you need it most!  The York (and other A2W units) tend to go to -25C, which I am more comfortable with.

 

2) (and this is A2A in general) - I'm nervous of the proprietary nature of the systems.  Apart from thr F-Gas issue for working on them, it doesn't seem that easy to swap/move/add individual modules (indoor units or the outdoor unit).  With wet systems you can change the boiler and leave the rest of the system as is or swap out a faulty boiler with any other similar one you can grab for peanuts at any builders merchant that day.  We have a lot of systems to maintain and niggles with individual parts of the heating system are fairly common.  At the moment swapping bad rads or trouble shooting is easy(ish).  Sure if a boiler goes we get our regular boiler engineers in, but they can put (nearly) any brand or model in.  it's not like we have to use a Worcester Bosch boiler because we have WB rads!

 

I still might go the A2A route, but I thought an investigation of A2W would be worth it.

 

I quite like the Vaillant units, but they are a little bulkier and crucially alot more expensive - hence the queery about the York units.  If they aren't mickey mouse, they would make the A2W type system alot more viable.

 

I'll have a look at Midea, but I found that York USA seems to be associated with Johnson Controls who are big wheels in the home automation/control world.  It's possible the Midea control units are Johnson ones!

 

Edit: Had a look, I don't think they are Midea - the dimensions of the units are very different 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Beelbeebub

[SteamyTea]

1 hour ago, Beelbeebub said:

Servicing the storage heaters doesn't really do anything.  In their favour there is bugger all to go wrong.  The main issue is the old one of leaking all the heat away in the day and having none at night.

Almost.

The building is leaking the heat away.

What is probably the real problem is that they are too small, so are charged to maximum capacity, which is also maximum temperature, and then the rate of heat loss is greater at the start than the end.

While there is not much to older style storage heater, there is a flap that closes when they charge and then opens up gradually, depending on temperature difference, during the day.

Those can fail.

I have around 30 kWh of storage in a 50m² house, they keep the place warm and I limit the charging window to 4 hours (from 3AM to 8AM).

While I would like to fit a heat pump, there really is not a problem with the existing simple setup I have.  A tenant that struggles to work a storage heater will really struggle with a heat pump, unless it is a remotely controlled one and you have the control.

[HughF]

8 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Almost.

The building is leaking the heat away.

What is probably the real problem is that they are too small, so are charged to maximum capacity, which is also maximum temperature, and then the rate of heat loss is greater at the start than the end.

While there is not much to older style storage heater, there is a flap that closes when they charge and then opens up gradually, depending on temperature difference, during the day.

Those can fail.

I have around 30 kWh of storage in a 50m² house, they keep the place warm and I limit the charging window to 4 hours (from 3AM to 8AM).

While I would like to fit a heat pump, there really is not a problem with the existing simple setup I have.  A tenant that struggles to work a storage heater will really struggle with a heat pump, unless it is a remotely controlled one and you have the control.

This is why a2a is the way forwards - turn it on, heat pours out, turn it off, nothing comes out...

 

 

[SteamyTea]

4 minutes ago, HughF said:

This is why a2a is the way forwards - turn it on, heat pours out, turn it off, nothing comes out...

 

 

Yes.

Apart from the internal noise and the horrible looking fan units.  Mind you, the units look no worse than a storage heater.

Edited July 14, 2023 by SteamyTea

[Beelbeebub]

4 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

..... tenant that struggles to work a storage heater will really struggle with a heat pump, unless it is a remotely controlled one and you have the control.

We've have tenants that struggle with a combi boiler and a single non-programmable thermostat!

 

Complained hot water wasn't working at various times.

 

Eventually worked out they were turning the boiler off at the wall when they didn't want heating. 

 

<Facepalm>

 

Then there was the lady who complained her heating was erratic, sometimes not coming on when she wanted it.

 

Quickmcheck showed no problems. Then I asked to see the thermostat.  "What's that?" - I described it. She looked puzzled then rummaged around in a kitchen drawer, pulled it out and said "oh you mean this?". 

 

She didn't know what it was, so stuck it in her random drawer of stuff.....next to the oven! Heating wouldn't come on for a couple of hours after after she'd cooked! 😂

 

The ideal would be two buttons "I am too hot" and "I am too cold"!

 

 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Beelbeebub
Spelin'

[JamesPa]

7 minutes ago, Beelbeebub said:

The ideal would be two buttons "I am too hot" and "I am too cold"!

Too complex I fear.  The expectation is that thing just magically work. 

 

Alternatively we could invest in  properly educating our population.

 

Unfortunately that would mean that certain unscrupulous, self interested, politicians, supported by their friends in the gutter press, couldn't convince large numbers of people to vote for fantasy concepts which damage the lives of those voting for them to benefit the interests of a small minority. 

 

Education education education.

 

[Beelbeebub]

56 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

Too complex I fear.  The expectation is that thing just magically work. 

 

Alternatively we could invest in  properly educating our population.

 

Unfortunately that would mean that certain unscrupulous, self interested, politicians, supported by their friends in the gutter press, couldn't convince large numbers of people to vote for fantasy concepts which damage the lives of those voting for them to benefit the interests of a small minority. 

 

Education education education.

 

On the plus side, I read that the gov seem to be (finally!) about to drop H2 for heating as a thing!

 

How many years have we wasted carrying on as before, installing gas boilers and tiny radiators, on the promise that one day the magic Hydrogen would just make everything ok?

 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Beelbeebub

[JamesPa]

44 minutes ago, Beelbeebub said:

On the plus side, I read that the gov seem to be (finally!) about to drop H2 for heating as a thing!

 

How many years have we wasted carrying on as before, installing gas boilers and tiny radiators, on the promise that one day the magic Hydrogen would just make everything ok?

 

Absolutely 100%.  Lets hope the decision sticks and we can, as you say, stop wasting time.

[HughF]

On 14/07/2023 at 20:09, Beelbeebub said:

 

 

The ideal would be two buttons "I am too hot" and "I am too cold"!

 

 

That's the sort of thing my wife needs

[ReedRichards]

24 minutes ago, HughF said:

That's the sort of thing my wife needs

 

My wife would short cycle between the "too hot" and "too cold".

[JohnMo]

31 minutes ago, ReedRichards said:

 

My wife would short cycle between the "too hot" and "too cold".

They all do that eventually.

[HughF]

13 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

They all do that eventually.

Indeed...

[Beelbeebub]

Had a bit of a dig, it appears the 5, 7, 9, 12, 14 and 16kw units are externally identical and all use the same hydraulic module (water pump, PHX etc)

They also share fans, fan motors and (interestingly) evaporator/condenser coils.

 

The 5, 7 and 9kw units are identical except for charge. 

The 12, 14 and 16kw units are identical except for the charge 

 

The differences are the compressor, expansion valve and 4 way valve (as you would expect).

 

The units seem to be complete monoblocks so everything except 3 way valve and controls is in the box.  Some other brands need external expansion vessels (Grant) or pumps (Samsung).

 

York are a big wheel in the commercial refrigeration and air con world, particularly in the US and are part of Johnson Controls (hence the control units being seen elsewhere)

 

The units are apparently made by an OEM exclusively to York design and spec. 

[Beelbeebub]

As an addendum to the post above, it's interesting the 5-9kw units and 12-16kw units are identical except for charge.  This opens up the possibility of just holding 5-9kw and 12-16kw units at suppliers and then adjusting the charge on site.  If the refrigerant were r290 the units could be supplied fully charged and then adjusted down to suit the property by simply bleeding (in a safe manner of course) the excess charge out during commissioning. Likewise, some careful monitoring over the first few years might be able to recommend up or down charging the system, which could be done at the next annual service.  If the heatloss calculations were way out and the unit was too big/small despite charge adjustment the fact they are externally identical means the whole unit could be part exchanged for a bigger/smaller unit as required.

 

Of course the dream would be to get the 5-16kw range (which would do most houses in the UK) into a single machine with and adjustable charge.  That would massively simplify the logistics and manufacturing, hopefully making things cheaper.

[JamesPa]

38 minutes ago, Beelbeebub said:

Of course the dream would be to get the 5-16kw range (which would do most houses in the UK) into a single machine with and adjustable charge.  That would massively simplify the logistics and manufacturing, hopefully making things cheaper.

That's probably over optimistic, but two models with some overlap would be nearly as good.  5-12 and 9-16 for example.

[JohnMo]

Cool energy already have that built in to their range of heat pump, with plenty of overlaps.

 

[JamesPa]

7 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Cool energy already have that built in to their range of heat pump, with plenty of overlaps.

 

I had always read this as min op modulated down - max op, not as an adjustable higher end.  Am I reading it wrongly.

[JohnMo]

Maybe I'm reading it incorrectly. Makes sense that it's min max modulating range

[Beelbeebub]

so more digging....

 

I've looked at the 5,7,9 kw machines as they appear to be identical except for the charge. 

 

This is specific to the York units but i suspect most modern r32 units are similar, it just depends where the manufacturers draw the line building different machines vs just tweaking the charge and control of an existing machine.

 

I then took -7 as the coldest outside temp where you would want to be working at max power (regardless of your flow temp)

 

Then 15C as a nominal point where you would want to be at minimum power as your barely need to heat the house.

 

Then I graphed the max/min power outputs for each of the 3 units

 

So it looks like the lower bound of modulation is the same regardless.  You don't get any advantage of lower modulation by going for the "smaller" unit.

 

I thin looked at COP at those extremes.

In this case the COPs are pretty much the same.  There is a small difference at the lower flow temperatures but by the time you get past 35C they are near identical.

 

So far it looks like the only disadvantage of going for the bigger unit is purchase cost and possibly the slightly larger electrical supply to the unit.

 

The final area i looked at was the COPs for the nominal power rating at 35, 45 and 55 flow temps

 

as you can see below about 15C there isn't much difference except maybe at 35C.  For 55C there is almost no difference even out to 30C outside temp

 

If you are after the ultimate efficiency and can run at very low flow temps (35C) and definitely don't need the higher powers when cold, so basically a good spec new build, you could get away with the 5kw and save some money up front and maybe get a little more efficiency.

 

For anyone else I reckon oversizing isn't going to be an issue with these units.