Managing the role of Architect and TF Manufacturer during the design process

[Norbert]

We are in the early stages of a project that will demolish and then rebuild 2 meters higher, as already discussed in this thread:

https://forum.buildhub.org.uk/topic/33630-demolition-and-rebuild-my-initial-thoughts-your-comments-welcome/

 

We have engaged some local architects and we will soon have completed Stage 2 i.e. we will have the concept design. i.e. basic layout, footprint, interior room layout, windows, roof config etc.

This will be a timber frame house built on a block wall base. What I need some advice and info on is how to manage the role of the architects and the TF manufacturer during the design process.

 

According to the schedule the next stages are Stage 3 – Developed Design then Stage 4A – Technical Design.

• At what stage should we start talking to TF manufacturers, my sense is earlier rather than later. Should I be sending them the concept design for initial comments and perhaps outline costings?
• With a traditional design I understand that the architects would do all the design work ready to hand over to a builder. However with a TF project obviously a large chunk of the detailed design would have to be done by the TF manufacturer. If I pay the architects to do Stage 3 –Developed Design then Stage 4A – Technical Design, am I not duplicating effort, or at least payment for services?
• How important is it that the TF company and architects work closely together? (very I would guess)
• At what point in the process is it wise to select the TF company? Based on 2 visits to local TF manufacturers it was very clear that their methods of construction would be very different. One using floor and roof cassettes, plus SIPS, the other just SIPS and constructing floors and roofs in-situ.This seems like a profound difference so no point in doing any detailed design until TF manufacturer selected it seems.

 

Any advice from anyone who has been through this process recently would be much appreciated

 

Edit : Just spotted this closely related thread :

 

Edited July 9, 2023 by Norbert

[Dave Jones]

be very very careful paying up front to a TF company. They tend to go bust eith your money recently.

 

Unless you are planning to move in withing 12 weeks of breaking ground the extra cost of TF is lost.

[nod]

10 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

be very very careful paying up front to a TF company. They tend to go bust eith your money recently.

 

Unless you are planning to move in withing 12 weeks of breaking ground the extra cost of TF is lost.

Great advise 

TF companies are going bust on a weekly basis 

[Nickfromwales]

1 hour ago, Dave Jones said:

be very very careful paying up front to a TF company. They tend to go bust eith your money recently.

 

Unless you are planning to move in withing 12 weeks of breaking ground the extra cost of TF is lost.

 

59 minutes ago, nod said:

Great advise 

TF companies are going bust on a weekly basis 

Is that small - medium concerns, or the larger more recognised companies? If so, who of recent?

 

Genuine question which will be of value here.

[Nickfromwales]

1 hour ago, Dave Jones said:

the extra cost of TF is lost.

You keep saying this, and I'll keep disagreeing with you, sorry.

The inherent benefits of not using masonry (brick / block etc) is hugely significant, especially if your chosen TF contractor offers a guaranteed airtightness score!!

Even more so again, if they're blowing in Warmcell to the walls and roof as this again deletes time, labour, and irregularities in how the product(s) get installed.

Also, once you incorporate these key elements into your trajectory the downstream time saving is also massive; there is only electrical & plumbing 1st fix to do before you move immediately to boarding and plastering, in an all but bone-dry dwelling, and most TF will be service battened to accept small bore services. Makes everything a doddle after that tbh, and is very attractive to the hands-on posse / avid DIY'ers.

[nod]

1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said:

You keep saying this, and I'll keep disagreeing with you, sorry.

The inherent benefits of not using masonry (brick / block etc) is hugely significant, especially if your chosen TF contractor offers a guaranteed airtightness score!!

Even more so again, if they're blowing in Warmcell to the walls and roof as this again deletes time, labour, and irregularities in how the product(s) get installed.

Also, once you incorporate these key elements into your trajectory the downstream time saving is also massive; there is only electrical & plumbing 1st fix to do before you move immediately to boarding and plastering, in an all but bone-dry dwelling, and most TF will be service battened to accept small bore services. Makes everything a doddle after that tbh, and is very attractive to the hands-on posse / avid DIY'ers.

But there not a good as solid built 

Certainly not worth the extra cost 😁

[nod]

1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said:

 

Is that small - medium concerns, or the larger more recognised companies? If so, who of recent?

 

Genuine question which will be of value here.

We’ve had two sites held up due to TF companies go into liquidation Both large companies 

But to be fare There are quite a few companies in general struggling with cash flow 

I find it outrageous that companies ask for all the money before they arive on site 

[dpmiller]

9 minutes ago, nod said:

not a good as solid built 

 

what exactly does that even mean?

[TonyT]

I think in Scotland we embraced timber frame a long time ago,

my 60m2 extension was build over the weekend and a few evenings with me cutting C16 6x2 on the chop saw and the joiner nailing them together, then OSB on top and stacked.

 

It was a quick efficient build.

roof trusses we’re delivered a few days and installed in a day and sarking over 2 days.

house wrapped and effectively wind and watertight in a couple of weeks.

 

internals proceeded then with stonemason on the outside doing his thing.

[Dave Jones]

7 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

You keep saying this, and I'll keep disagreeing with you, sorry.

The inherent benefits of not using masonry (brick / block etc) is hugely significant, especially if your chosen TF contractor offers a guaranteed airtightness score!!

Even more so again, if they're blowing in Warmcell to the walls and roof as this again deletes time, labour, and irregularities in how the product(s) get installed.

Also, once you incorporate these key elements into your trajectory the downstream time saving is also massive; there is only electrical & plumbing 1st fix to do before you move immediately to boarding and plastering, in an all but bone-dry dwelling, and most TF will be service battened to accept small bore services. Makes everything a doddle after that tbh, and is very attractive to the hands-on posse / avid DIY'ers.

 

there isnt an issue getting a traditional build airtight. Not saying it isnt easier with stick build but the mega cost and dodgy dealers isnt worth it. Not by a long way.

[Nickfromwales]

18 hours ago, nod said:

We’ve had two sites held up due to TF companies go into liquidation Both large companies 

But to be fare There are quite a few companies in general struggling with cash flow 

I find it outrageous that companies ask for all the money before they arive on site 

If you ask for someone to make you something bespoke, then you don’t buy it, they’re Donald Ducked. 
C’mon, it’s been the norm for as long as commerce has been around. Tailored suit? Pay up front. Etc. 

[Nickfromwales]

19 hours ago, Dave Jones said:

 

there isnt an issue getting a traditional build airtight. Not saying it isnt easier with stick build but the mega cost and dodgy dealers isnt worth it. Not by a long way.

Unless you are going to study the building industry, learn how to make a dwelling airtight, and be on site every single day to manage the trades executing this work, you have NO CHANCE vs a TF build with a guaranteed AT score. Add all that grief (and still loads of) uncertainty, and then redefine "mega cost" please. Go find a general builder who; a) knows what airtight actually means, or b) one that will put your money where his mouth is and offer up a guaranteed AT result of even sub 1.0 ACH.... Let me know how that goes!

 

The facts speak for themselves, and the TF suppliers I have conversation with have diaries which are jam-packed into next year.

 

There are people who can't hang a shelf, and for them it's far less risk to appoint a TF supplier with guaranteed outcome than it is to get a general builder to knock up a masonry shell and hope it turns out OK. TF company will be contracted to produce an end result, builders will just typically 'put something up'. Good luck tying to define in court where they went wrong when your AT score comes back at 3.0 - 5.0ACH and you are stuck with what stands in front of you .

 

I've turned up at many a job where the clients are all smiley faced and overjoyed with progress, only for me to say "WTF is all this mess?" I turned up at one job, the second lot of groundworkers (which replaced the first lot of assholes, all paid up and work was dire) were just starting to cover their work over with pea-gravel, and I said to the clients "none of that complies with B-Regs, tell them to stop now and do it all again". They had been paid £7k in advance and just buggered off when challenged. Current project, we're coming up to £40k worth of 'damages' done and hidden by the builder, he had most of his money up front, was challenged, then.......buggered off. Both clients to date have received £zilch back off either job. There's north of £61k there.

 

See a pattern here? This is nothing to do with the build, or what they're building it with, it's 100% to do with the people you are dealing with. The people who own the company, and it is they who decide how the job goes and it is them you are investing in. Members on here have built with masonry and achieved super-good AT results, but that's the exception and not the rule, as not a lot of people who wish to self-build know anything whatsoever about the construction industry, worrying as that is.

[Dave Jones]

we all know there are crap builders. Saw next door timber frame being plumbed with window packers under the soul plate. it was still not finished after we moved in. total waste of money for no reason.

 

Lets see how all these cowboys get on with the new regs. No photo's of all the key build elements, geo tagged, to evidence good workmanship. No completion cert.

 

Will be very interesting.

 

 

[dpmiller]

2 hours ago, Dave Jones said:

total waste of money for no reason.

how do you how much it cost?

[Papillon]

I really like timber frame as an architect, very versatile and a quick tidy build. Costs are about the same as brick and mortar.

 

One thing to be wary of, they are putting block/render on the outside skin more and more now, which betrays the whole point of timber frame for me.

 

I think I answered in that thread and my answer still stays the same. Happy to give impartial advice as an architect who used to work for a timber frame manufacturer. I don’t think you need both engaged at once.

[Norbert]

On 11/07/2023 at 17:24, Papillon said:

One thing to be wary of, they are putting block/render on the outside skin more and more now, which betrays the whole point of timber frame for me.

 

This implies to me that you think a better solution is render board and render. Is that correct?

[Papillon]

Yes I think it looks nicer and it’s more lightweight.
 

When you join say, a lower height garage to the main house, there’s a part that’s sometimes unsupported brickwork above the garage roof on the house wall (not sure how to describe it) but if you use cladding or render there, it is just neater and you don’t need a thick wall or support.