Is the beam too big for purpose

[Sophiae]

3 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Would the 203 have given you the headroom that you assumed you were going to get?

Yes. I can’t even describe my happiness with this. He has provided all calculations and gone through every element of the design with me. Literally felt like I was having a private basic structural engineering class (express) and gave me a couple of options for the bearings too so that the new builders can execute the design with ease. I will be sending a copy to the BCO and wait for his feedback. 
I also checked the price from the same factory I bought the original beam, and it cost easily £500-800 cheaper. 

[Nickfromwales]

Just now, Sophiae said:

and it cost easily £500-800 cheaper. 

Holy shit.

[Sophiae]

Just now, Nickfromwales said:

Holy shit.

Now I need to address this in a formal way with the SE. I will start compiling an email explaining all the issues and will be asking him to respond back with a solution. Or I will ask him to refund me back all the financial losses I was burdened with and end my email giving him notice of seeking legal advice should he not want to cooperate. 
I don’t want to go through courts, but seeing the new design and being treated like I matter like any other customer should be treated, I know I deserve better than the extremely substandard service he provided. 
 

[Nickfromwales]

1 minute ago, Sophiae said:

Now I need to address this in a formal way with the SE. I will start compiling an email explaining all the issues and will be asking him to respond back with a solution. Or I will ask him to refund me back all the financial losses I was burdened with and end my email giving him notice of seeking legal advice should he not want to cooperate. 
I don’t want to go through courts, but seeing the new design and being treated like I matter like any other customer should be treated, I know I deserve better than the extremely substandard service he provided. 
 

Indeed.

 

Be pragmatic, and be firm. Keep the threat of legal action back as a last resort. Hopefully you won't need to show that card, let alone go the route of legal recourse. If you do then I think you'd be successful in this instance, but don't assume you will be. Consider costs before lighting any fires. CAB will be a great sounding board, as will BH.

[Sophiae]

5 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Indeed.

 

Be pragmatic, and be firm. Keep the threat of legal action back as a last resort. Hopefully you won't need to show that card, let alone go the route of legal recourse. If you do then I think you'd be successful in this instance, but don't assume you will be. Consider costs before lighting any fires. CAB will be a great sounding board, as will BH.

Thank you so much. I shall do that. Once written I will seek help in proof reading and editing should it need adjusting. 
 

I will keep you posted. 

[Nickfromwales]

Just now, Sophiae said:

Thank you so much. I shall do that. Once written I will seek help in proof reading and editing should it need adjusting. 
 

I will keep you posted. 

Coolio.

Get the order of events clear, post your 'plan of attack' here, and "we" can offer support and critique before you push the button.

 

For a bit of respite, there are many folk far worse off, and this is recoverable. Time goes, that's a given, but the effort here and now will produce dividends for sure. 👊

[jon-lee]

Looks like your SE is using tekla tedds design software. Tekla tends is brilliant but I find the calculations are very conservative and over engineered. A good old fashioned hand calculation would probably reduce the section size or weight 

[saveasteading]

As above, don't even mention legal action.

The SE is obliged to advise their insurers of a potential claim ASAP, amd they might escalate even if the SE wants to resolve it.

 

Friendly chat is all.

[jon-lee]

55 minutes ago, jon-lee said:

Looks like your SE is using tekla tedds design software. Tekla tends is brilliant but I find the calculations are very conservative and over engineered. A good old fashioned hand calculation would probably reduce the section size or weight 

Tbh having a second look at the calculations. Your SE has been pretty clever and designed the beam for approximate 10mm max deflection to ensure bifolds are square. I don't think your SE has over engineered all that much.

[Sophiae]

7 hours ago, saveasteading said:

As above, don't even mention legal action.

The SE is obliged to advise their insurers of a potential claim ASAP, amd they might escalate even if the SE wants to resolve it.

 

Friendly chat is all.

So if a friendly chat hasn’t done the trick and I wasn’t able to recover my money, how would I proceed next? 

[Sophiae]

7 hours ago, jon-lee said:

Tbh having a second look at the calculations. Your SE has been pretty clever and designed the beam for approximate 10mm max deflection to ensure bifolds are square. I don't think your SE has over engineered all that much.

It’s not the bifolds. It’s the Beam1. 
it’s massive. 

[Sophiae]

What do you think of these in replacement? 
i also have the full calculations using Tekla as well. 

New Proposed SE.pdf

[Mr Punter]

8 hours ago, Sophiae said:

What do you think of these in replacement? 

 

Is there a section detail through B1 showing the joists and ceilings either side?

[George]

16 hours ago, jon-lee said:

Tbh having a second look at the calculations. Your SE has been pretty clever and designed the beam for approximate 10mm max deflection to ensure bifolds are square. I don't think your SE has over engineered all that much.

 

Although it's the one under the wall, the 10mm deflection limit is still important for supporting existing masonry walls. Much more deflection and there is a risk of cracking. 

That would be my target deflection when retrofitting a beam. 

 

[George]

9 hours ago, Sophiae said:

What do you think of these in replacement? 
i also have the full calculations using Tekla as well. 

New Proposed SE.pdf 551.83 kB · 7 downloads

Personally a 203 deep beam is a bit shallow for me on a 6.5m span (although previous engineer had drawn it at 7m). I also don't like to have any overhanging masonry when retrofitting - presumably this a 250mm wall on a 203 wide beam. Not outside the limits but like I say when retrofitting a beam, full width bearing is better to allow for any unknown out of alignment or dodgy existing brickwork.

 

As above, 10mm deflection should be the target. Although it is a heavy section so it may be stiff enough to prevent excessive deflection.

 

I would normally expect a 254x254 UC in this situation - this deals with deflection and the bearing width in one go and avoids any welding.

 

But if you ask three engineers for an opinion you'll get 4 different options - there is no such thing as a perfect answer in engineering, it is what will economically work and fit most criteria. 

[Sophiae]

59 minutes ago, George said:

Personally a 203 deep beam is a bit shallow for me on a 6.5m span (although previous engineer had drawn it at 7m). I also don't like to have any overhanging masonry when retrofitting - presumably this a 250mm wall on a 203 wide beam. Not outside the limits but like I say when retrofitting a beam, full width bearing is better to allow for any unknown out of alignment or dodgy existing brickwork.

 

As above, 10mm deflection should be the target. Although it is a heavy section so it may be stiff enough to prevent excessive deflection.

 

I would normally expect a 254x254 UC in this situation - this deals with deflection and the bearing width in one go and avoids any welding.

 

But if you ask three engineers for an opinion you'll get 4 different options - there is no such thing as a perfect answer in engineering, it is what will economically work and fit most criteria. 

That’s exactly what happened. I asked 4 SE and each one came with a different design that the other, though 2 of them came very close. 
i’ll attach the maths. 

[Sophiae]

All feedback much appreciated 

Calculations.pdf

[Sophiae]

1 hour ago, Mr Punter said:

 

Is there a section detail through B1 showing the joists and ceilings either side?

I don’t have one. Shall I ask him to provide one? 

[saveasteading]

18 hours ago, Sophiae said:

I wasn’t able to recover my money, how would I proceed

I don't think you will get any money. You've asked 4 SEs to design one beam. None of them seems to be wrong, just differing.

 

You would engage a lawyer who would engage a 5th (legal specialist) SE.

IF they agreed that the design could reasonably be much lighter then a tribunal might award you a few£100 which won't cover your costs.

 

BTW if I heard I was one of 4 SEs  I wouldn't be interested in any more work.

[Sophiae]

On 12/06/2023 at 19:01, saveasteading said:

I don't think you will get any money. You've asked 4 SEs to design one beam. None of them seems to be wrong, just differing.

 

You would engage a lawyer who would engage a 5th (legal specialist) SE.

IF they agreed that the design could reasonably be much lighter then a tribunal might award you a few£100 which won't cover your costs.

 

BTW if I heard I was one of 4 SEs  I wouldn't be interested in any more work.

The whole situation caused me extreme stress and a big financial loss so far. I understand that SEs May choose different designs but shouldn’t it all be based on maths, scientific calculations and a true representation of the actual build? 
 

I can see where this is going, which is no where but the financial losses to me and my son. 

[TonyT]

You could ask anyone to design anything and if the calculations came back as item x complies just, some may

decide that’s fine go with that some may decide let’s go next size up.

 

could be the same when sizing cable, a 6mm2 cable might comply ,borderline but leave no wiggle room, customer is paying for it so let’s go with 10mm2 covers the designer leaves a bit of wiggle room for future just incase things change when on site.

 

I think you need to put this behind you and move on, still more challenges coming if you are managing to this detail, or invest the time finding a small builder with good skills and recommendations.

 

 

 

 

[saveasteading]

I went to a seminar once when the design rules for wind load changed.

I think there were 24 of us  all Chartered Engineers. 

We were given an exercise to design a big.portal frame, something we all did as a job.

There were 24 different solutions even for what the input  load was. All of them were correct.

They could be grouped into the higher ones and the lower ones. The lecturer proposed that the more onerous results were from Consulting Engineers, and the lower ones from Contractor's Engineers and he was 100% right.

"You all have good reasons for your decisions....well done all.".

 

I'm not going into that any further.

 

 

I agree completely with @TonyT. Move on.