Hello from North Wales

[RussH]

We're just starting our self build on the Llyn Peninsula, north Wales. We've got as far as appointing a timber frame manufacturer but actually getting our existing house demolished and the foundations laid is proving to be a slow and frustrating process. Great start 😏 we have someone to demolish our existing property but haven't actually got a main contractor. The guy who is going to demolish and clear the site seems very knowledgeable and we may well work with him on the rest of the build.

We will complete a lot of the work ourselves. In a previous life (40+yrs ago😂) I was an electrician and we've converted a cow shed/barn and Chapel over the years so I know which end of a drill to hold.

Getting to this point has taken 3yrs, and I must admit we've had our doubts. 

[RichardL]

I'm Welsh borders but even here - finding a builder or any trade with time, a good builder with time is a challenge.
You may have more luck on a large project.

I've watches Grand Designs since day 1, he was more acerbic in the early series - anyhow admire anyone that will jump through the planners etc hoops to run this sort of project. The number of hangers on, officials, with an opinion put me off

Don't let them wear your down!
Good luck!

[markc]

Good morning and welcome

[Marvin]

Hi @RussH and welcome.

 

After 2 years of finishing your build, you will think, ah it was not that bad. 

 

Until then it can be a challange.

 

Just remember, the only stupid question is the one you never asked.

 

Good luck

 

M

 

[RussH]

23 minutes ago, Marvin said:

Hi @RussH and welcome.

 

After 2 years of finishing your build, you will think, ah it was not that bad. 

 

Until then it can be a challange.

 

Just remember, the only stupid question is the one you never asked.

 

Good luck

 

M

 

I'm trying to convince myself that we'll feel more positive when we actually see some physical progress. And I repeat the mantra that "it's really not that hard" but when you deal with people who actually put this in a quote "ball park figure" you do wonder what you're letting yourself into 😏😂

[RussH]

31 minutes ago, RichardL said:

I'm Welsh borders but even here - finding a builder or any trade with time, a good builder with time is a challenge.
You may have more luck on a large project.

I've watches Grand Designs since day 1, he was more acerbic in the early series - anyhow admire anyone that will jump through the planners etc hoops to run this sort of project. The number of hangers on, officials, with an opinion put me off

Don't let them wear your down!
Good luck!

Thanks for the welcome. We're in rented on the Welsh border, nr Oswestry. Which is a big motivation to get this done! I stopped watching grand designs. Ours is more like "the house that £120k built".......some chance 🙄😂

[Marvin]

49 minutes ago, RussH said:

I'm trying to convince myself that we'll feel more positive when we actually see some physical progress. And I repeat the mantra that "it's really not that hard" but when you deal with people who actually put this in a quote "ball park figure" you do wonder what you're letting yourself into 😏😂

Having been a QS and a cost engineer, in my humble opinion usually the reasons for a guesstimate are lack of detail for the item meaning there's not enough information to price it or someone not bothering to put the effort into pricing it or the concern that material/ labour costs will change substantially by the time the works start OR the dark art! (Works below existing ground which if you have watched a lot of granddesigns you will know is one of the big unknowns/risk items)

 

 

If its one of these problems you can find ways to limit the risk.

 

What is the ball park figure item?

Edited May 3, 2023 by Marvin
Add info

[RussH]

1 hour ago, Marvin said:

Having been a QS and a cost engineer, in my humble opinion usually the reasons for a guesstimate are lack of detail for the item meaning there's not enough information to price it or someone not bothering to put the effort into pricing it or the concern that material/ labour costs will change substantially by the time the works start OR the dark art! (Works below existing ground which if you have watched a lot of granddesigns you will know is one of the big unknowns/risk items)

 

 

If its one of these problems you can find ways to limit the risk.

 

What is the ball park figure item?

This was for the pad/foundation. So I do get it (I like your "dark arts" description), but rather than work with me this is what he replied with🙄. So the guy we're using to demolish/prepare the site did work with me and talk pragmatically/sensibly.

We've done some test holes and engaged a structural engineer. The fact that the guy we're working with wouldn't give me a price until after we get certainty on this gives me confidence in him.

I'm afraid that our plans/drawings, even to my uneducated eye, are not great. But because the timber frame company have provided the calculations, detailed design etc I'm struggling to see the benefit of getting them redone. Once we have the pad design that is.

Once the structure is up we'll need a builder/main contractor to do the roofing (standing seam) cladding (Cedral type stuff) doors and windows. I'll then complete the rest of engage specialist trades as necessary.

So once you take all that into account there's not much left for a traditional builder/main contractor. Which is possibly part of the problem to get sensible engagement with a builder?

[Marvin]

It sounds to me as if you are doing all the right things. 

 

I doubt the timberframe company will have messed up the design.

 

I think that your looking for a watertight building after founds and timber frame.

 

Make sure you understand whose responsibility it is to coordinate the various opperations throughout the build.   Before starting the slab someone should check the dimensions on the foundations drawings against the timber frame requirement. Do they fit together? Secondly someone should check the foundations as they're being built. It's one cost sorting out something whilst the labour and plant are there, it's a much bigger cost when the crane and frame turns up and the groundworkers are working elsewhere with all their plant....

 

Make sure you plan all the service routes in advance as much as possible, espically any in the foundations like foul water pipes and service cables pipes. 

 

Do you have to install the fibre optic connection and or electric vehicle charger? I assume you have checked with building control...

 

I wish you fair weather

 

M

[RussH]

On 03/05/2023 at 14:54, Marvin said:

It sounds to me as if you are doing all the right things. 

 

I doubt the timberframe company will have messed up the design.

 

I think that your looking for a watertight building after founds and timber frame.

 

Make sure you understand whose responsibility it is to coordinate the various opperations throughout the build.   Before starting the slab someone should check the dimensions on the foundations drawings against the timber frame requirement. Do they fit together? Secondly someone should check the foundations as they're being built. It's one cost sorting out something whilst the labour and plant are there, it's a much bigger cost when the crane and frame turns up and the groundworkers are working elsewhere with all their plant....

 

Make sure you plan all the service routes in advance as much as possible, espically any in the foundations like foul water pipes and service cables pipes. 

 

Do you have to install the fibre optic connection and or electric vehicle charger? I assume you have checked with building control...

 

I wish you fair weather

 

M

Thanks Marvin for your time in replying. Some days I think there's nothing hard about this, other days when another request, requirement, regulation pops up I do think stuff it I'm going to live in a campervan 😏😂

We have fibre optic. I'll need to check on the charger (even though I no interest in an EV😏)

 

[saveasteading]

On 03/05/2023 at 09:42, Marvin said:

usually the reasons for a guesstimate are lack of detail for the item meaning there's not enough information to price

Welcome @RussH.

 

Many builders don't have the skill to prepare an accurate estimate, and are scared to provide a quotation, even with detailed drawings.

So they guess or decline....worst they pitch very high just in case.

They won't want to engage someone to cost it for them either, as there is a fee and it is expensive to pay this out and not get the job.

 

Chicken and egg. But that is the reality.

 

Our groundworker estimated realistically*, then claimed lots of imaginary extras, so it was  get rid time.

Our joiner used an estimating service for the timber frame. My analysis showed multiple over-measures. Joiner agreed to a revised price and it went well.

 

Don't forget that all these elements have to be integrated, so the foundations must suit the superstructure, and so on.

 

Keep asking. There is lots of experience on here.

 

(* I include estimating as a skill, it must be an extra worry not having the experience)

 

[ToughButterCup]

52 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

...

Many builders don't have the skill to prepare an accurate estimate, and are scared to provide a quotation, even with detailed drawings.

So they guess or decline....worst they pitch very high just in case.

They won't want to engage someone to cost it for them either, as there is a fee and it is expensive to pay this out and not get the job.

....

 

How common ! .... How right !

[RussH]

5 hours ago, saveasteading said:

Welcome @RussH.

 

Many builders don't have the skill to prepare an accurate estimate, and are scared to provide a quotation, even with detailed drawings.

So they guess or decline....worst they pitch very high just in case.

They won't want to engage someone to cost it for them either, as there is a fee and it is expensive to pay this out and not get the job.

 

Chicken and egg. But that is the reality.

 

Our groundworker estimated realistically*, then claimed lots of imaginary extras, so it was  get rid time.

Our joiner used an estimating service for the timber frame. My analysis showed multiple over-measures. Joiner agreed to a revised price and it went well.

 

Don't forget that all these elements have to be integrated, so the foundations must suit the superstructure, and so on.

 

Keep asking. There is lots of experience on here.

 

(* I include estimating as a skill, it must be an extra worry not having the experience)

 

You've nailed it there! And thanks for the reply/tips.

The more I see the less I like😏 I've been involved in many high value projects (hands on), I've also managed significant, complex, high risk, time and budget constrained multi million £ projects, dealt with the tender and bid submissions and subsequent contract management.

You'd have thought a great skill set for a little self build. Nope😂😏 not at all I'm mostly just baffled by the people that I've dealt with. With a couple of notable exceptions.

So I just continue to move the boundaries from say 80:20 contractor/builder to us. To 90:10 us doing it ourselves to contractor 🤔😂

[Thorfun]

On 03/05/2023 at 11:03, RussH said:

Once the structure is up we'll need a builder/main contractor to do the roofing (standing seam) cladding (Cedral type stuff) doors and windows. I'll then complete the rest of engage specialist trades as necessary.

not strictly true. you could get a standing seam roofing company to do the roof, a chippie to do the cladding and the window supplier to install the doors and windows. no need to pay the overhead of a main contractor for that stuff as far as I can see, unless you're wanting to reduce risk by paying a main contractor. we did ours with separate trades and worked well.

[saveasteading]

Removing the contractors' risks always helps their confidence.

They may talk big about supply and build, but they may well be nervous. So buy the blocks/ timber/ boards. Then keep an eye on the wastage.

 

I was an estimator on big projects for many years. Price safe and there is no job. Price low and you lose money. Get it just right and still the project managers will complain....to which my response was that I have to assume a high level of competence.

These PMs were educated, intelligent and knowledgeable but would always resist helping with a quote....too scary.

So imagining being a tradesperson moving into fofmal quotations for whole projects...firstly there is no reason why they should be good estimators, secondly they could lose money.

 

One other thing. Every new construction project is a one off. A unique manufacturing operation, in a field. 

People who work in offices or factories don't tend to appreciate that fully.

 

I think everyone on bh says that the second project would be much easier.

We here help with the first, if we can.

[saveasteading]

Chippy did our roof cladding. Good job too. 

It wasn't standing seam because I don't like it for various reasons.

We bought the material.

[RussH]

2 hours ago, Thorfun said:

not strictly true. you could get a standing seam roofing company to do the roof, a chippie to do the cladding and the window supplier to install the doors and windows. no need to pay the overhead of a main contractor for that stuff as far as I can see, unless you're wanting to reduce risk by paying a main contractor. we did ours with separate trades and worked well.

Yes I've arrived at the same conclusion 👍

[RussH]

2 hours ago, saveasteading said:

Removing the contractors' risks always helps their confidence.

They may talk big about supply and build, but they may well be nervous. So buy the blocks/ timber/ boards. Then keep an eye on the wastage.

 

I was an estimator on big projects for many years. Price safe and there is no job. Price low and you lose money. Get it just right and still the project managers will complain....to which my response was that I have to assume a high level of competence.

These PMs were educated, intelligent and knowledgeable but would always resist helping with a quote....too scary.

So imagining being a tradesperson moving into fofmal quotations for whole projects...firstly there is no reason why they should be good estimators, secondly they could lose money.

 

One other thing. Every new construction project is a one off. A unique manufacturing operation, in a field. 

People who work in offices or factories don't tend to appreciate that fully.

 

I think everyone on bh says that the second project would be much easier.

We here help with the first, if we can.

Unfortunately (unless I could manipulate the models 😏😂) procurement would award contracts to the cheapest "compliant" quote. They'd then get a gold star for saving a gazillion quid. In reality it wouldn't get delivered or we'd have to deal with idiots for a couple of years until the idiots bankrupted their own company 😂

[saveasteading]

6 hours ago, RussH said:

 In reality it wouldn't get delivered

That is not always the case. There is a builder out there who is simply very good at it, efficient and not greedy. They can be cheapest and also very good. 

They choose their clients carefully.

Finding them is your challenge.

[RussH]

Hopefully we've found one. He lives a couple of miles away, his son who is a partner in the business is building his own house literally 500m away from our place. He is very knowledgeable, but pragmatic when you deal with him. He's very helpful and understanding about how much or how little of the project he will complete.

Old school, in a good way, likes to meet face to face to discuss and agree things. I'm sure a big part of that is assessing us as client!! As you allude to business' need to know when to walk away from certain jobs or people!  We've engaged him to do the demolition and if things go well I'm hopeful we'll go with him and his son for further works.

Although we haven't agreed how much or how little I will do I've been very careful to reassure him that the boundaries will be crystal clear and I won't delay or impact on anything he does.

I've got a good feeling, but time will tell😊

Edited May 30, 2023 by RussH

[RussH]

16 hours ago, saveasteading said:

Chippy did our roof cladding. Good job too. 

It wasn't standing seam because I don't like it for various reasons.

We bought the material.

Mind me asking what you don't like about standing seam? Our plan is to use this. Not the genuine zinc, probably aluminium "click" type. Our place is coastal so I do have reservations about salt spray and at times serious winds. But it comes with a 50yr warranty (not that I'll have much chance of using that😏)

[saveasteading]

2 hours ago, RussH said:

what you don't like about standing seam? 

 Nothing wrong as such, but I will explain in what is likely to be a short essay later.

[saveasteading]

OK standing seam v visible screws.

 

Plusses

No screw penetrations that might leak.

No screws on show. Aesthetics.

Can resemble old fashioned zinc or lead roofing.

 

Negatives.

Very difficult indeed to repair if damaged by, say, a branch falling.

Some types require special equipment adding to the above.

Very difficult to join lengths (not important on most domestic roofs).

Tricky to seal around openings.

Tricky to seal at ends (without screws or rivets)

Some require special tools.

In transport they don't stack neatly so there is lots of air and packaging.

Getting a replacement is expensive.

Fitted cost is more than a screwed system.

On very big roofs they need lots of expansion allowance.

Penetrations for flues etc need flashings to be screwed into the cladding and must be through the flat  which then needs reinforcement. 

 

 

I offered standing seam to clients and they never accepted it due to the cost.

Some wanted SS until they heard of the saving for screwed.

Ie if we were picking up someone else's design, it was apparent that they hadn't been informed fully.

 

Yes sometimes a screw can fail, but it is easily replaced. I reckon 1 in 10,000 required a return visit to replace.  On a house there will be a vapour barrier beneath to catch any drips until nature seals it again. 

Fortunately I never had to repair someone else's ss roof. But did on walls. The damaged sheet can't be replaced without very extensive dismantling, so we had flashings made and screwed over the damage.

 

I'd be interested to hear of real life competitive quotes for ss v screwed. But I think most users favour one and don't price both.

My guess is that a 200m2 (on slope) will be £20/m2 difference ie £4,000.

Edited May 30, 2023 by saveasteading
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