Is there a no-frills R290 heat pump?

[sharpener]

Starting on another tack I am now looking to see if there is an R290 HP with a simple interface so I can just call for heat at either 65C or 35C from my existing controls (like the Grant mentioned recently in another thread but that is R32). Ideally a DIY install.

 

So far it seems the major manufacturers (Panasonic L-series, Mitsubishi, Vaillant arotherm plus, Viessman vitocal 150 etc) have got R290 models already but some of them are only <10kW and most of them have their own relatively sophisticated but un-interfaceable controls.

 

To judge from the Viessman literature downloadable here the restrictions (safe zone of 3144(!) mm wide) are not too onerous.

 

Using the usual model of technology diffusion I imagine in time the no frills brigade (Grant, CoolEnergy) will introduce R290 HT units but has anyone got one on the market yet?

 

I expect @markocosic will have something to say on the topic<g>!

[markocosic]

Not that I'm aware of.

 

 

The only unit I know that ONLY has two inputs (call for CH, call for DHW) is the Kensa ground source unit designed for social housing applications. They consider both the landlord and the tenant as completely unteachable and insistent on using on/off controls irrespective of the impact this has on operating cost. So produce a unit that literally only has two calls for heat and naff lifetime operating costs to match.

 

Else they all come with controls capable of being of operated more efficiently than that.

 

Even the cheapie cheapies such as Phinx (available to anybody FOB China by the container full)

https://www.phnix-e.com/r290-greentherm-heat-pump.html

 

 

If rads you're certainly weather compensating those. If UFH you're probably weather compensating that and piping to it direct; though it's less critical.

 

And you just just bang 65C hot water into a cylinder if you don't need it either. You do dT control between the hot water cylinder contents and the flow temperature to it.

 

 

You can make most of the more capable controls operate the way that you describe if you're particularly bloody minded though so it shouldn't be a constraint on your search.

 

 

Pana / Mitsi / LG / Samsung ave all announced R290 units but they don't have good availability yet FWIW. They'll be busy selling off all the old F-Gas stock whilst demand (for anything) is high before they start offering R290 units I suspect.

 

I think Nibe and Vaillant the only R290 units on lots of UK shelves.

[PhilT]

2 hours ago, sharpener said:

Starting on another tack I am now looking to see if there is an R290 HP with a simple interface

Interested to know why some may like/prefer R290 to R32. Looking at the research literature, on paper R32 appears to be superior except for GWP, and has no onerous fire regs.

[sharpener]

From what I have read the thermodynamic properties of r290 mean easier to achieve LWT of 70C for drop-in replacement market so hotter water and better CoPs than R32 in that application.

 

https://viessmanndirect.co.uk/files//c0caf059-853e-4207-909d-ae8a00cd0c22/Technical Guide.pdf p69 says it requires a safety zone of 3144mm at ground level so in practice 1572mm from centre of HP to nearest door opening which is not too onerous and I can certainly live with. Not a split system so no propane inside the house anyway. Did you have something else in mind @PhilT?

 

 

As of yesterday there was at least one supplier with the 16kW unit in stock. But as said upthread it may be better to wait until the technology is not bleeding edge, there isn't such a price premium and the generic mfrs are doing them without all the bells and whistles.

[joth]

The mitsubishi FTC6 has 2 zones that can have different flow temps up to 60°C and support call for heat separetely. (Or down to 5° in calling mode).

If you call both zones simultaneously it will manage an electric mixing valve to temper zone 2 to be a lesser heating/cooling. (So I have zone 1 for fan coils and 2 for ufh)

It also has DHW support that heating whenever the zones are set to cooling mode but that doesn't have a sensible "dumb" way to call for heat. You can force heat, but it will randomly heat on its own too based on a thermistor value. (I have used a relay to swap out the thermistor for fixed resistor values, but it's messy and really not helped by the thermistor using a nonstandard PCB header connector)

 

 

[sharpener]

Interesting research on R290 reported here. @markocosic would be pleased with the small quantities of refrigerant, only 10g/kW which seems amazingly low. They envisage commercial HPs using only 15g/kW. Meanwhile Bosch have announced their R290 offering (but only up to 6.7 kW) and a new factory in Poland.

 

But I am not holding my breath for large-scale heat pump manufacturing in the UK whatever BEIS thinks. German industry has been moving steadily into Eastern Europe ever since the Wall came down, the combination of a good level of skills and comparatively low labour rates is irresistible.

[SteamyTea]

1 hour ago, sharpener said:

combination of a good level of skills and comparatively low labour rates is irresistible.

I suspect the biggest driver was property prices. Was much cheaper to develope 100 hectares in the old Eastern Block than it was to redevelop an existing site in the west.

HP are very suitable for automation. Let's face it, robotics are so cheap now, there is no need to employ people.

[markocosic]

Heat pumps aren't made in the volumes to justify huge automation. They'll be made in the eastern bloc more for the attitude of folks towards working than the wages. Productivity is the issue facing the UK rather than wages.

[SteamyTea]

1 minute ago, markocosic said:

Heat pumps aren't made in the volumes to justify huge automation

Are you talking just the UK, or even the English marketplace, or globally?

2 minutes ago, markocosic said:

Productivity is the issue facing the UK rather than wages.

Too true.

But as Gordon Ramsey shows, you can always improve productivity by shouting, belittling and bullying the workforce, and then offer them a zero hour contract.  Works every time.

[sharpener]

6 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Are you talking just the UK, or even the English marketplace, or globally?

 

 

Having been on many factory visits in the UK, W and E Europe and S Korea I would guess that making the metaiwork and most of the components (compressor, valves, HX, cut and bent pipework, pcb etc) is highly automated, but final assembly would be a manual process, probably on an assembly line like automotive with different stages done at different workstations equipped with power screwdrivers and other power tools. Ending up with fill and final test on an instrumented test rig.

 

That is how they do vaguely similar products with lots of different electromechanical bits, like washing machines which are bigger volume than HPs. Happy to be proved wrong if someone has a link to an HP factory on youtube.

[markocosic]

7 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Are you talking just the UK, or even the English marketplace, or globally?

 

A2W monoblocs for the european market

 

@sharpener is spot on. All the gubbins are machine made on production lines. Usually by others and bought in by the heat pump vendor. Some bean tin pressing and assembly processes are automated. Final assembly of all the electrical spaghetti etc is by humans.

 

What you're NOT shown on videos.like these says a lot:

 

 

 

Water to water units can be even more low volume and manual. I was at the Thermia factory a few years ago and virtually nothing was robots at their volumes.

[markocosic]

7 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

But as eastern European culture shows, you can always improve productivity by denying people the opportunity to enjoy the fruits of their labour by using these to subside the idle for decades. Works every time.

 

Quote edited for relevance.

 

The UK is in the suppression part of the cycle where working hard is rewarded with the fruits of your labour being seized and squandered. Public opinion shifts the other way once the economic wheels of "communism" finally fall off.

[DanDee]

 

[SteamyTea]

800 robots replacing 24,000 workers.

I think automation of heat pumps is with is.

 

This from 5 years ago.

 

[sharpener]

3 hours ago, markocosic said:

 

Quote edited for relevance.

 

The UK is in the suppression part of the cycle where working hard is rewarded with the fruits of your labour being seized and squandered. Public opinion shifts the other way once the economic wheels of "communism" finally fall off.

 

See also https://www.wired.com/2008/02/new-and-improve/. I particularly like the description of surrealism.

[sharpener]

Can anyone tell me who makes the Viessman Vitocal 150-A high temperature range? As I recall the 100-A is made by Maxa but I can't find any R290/high temp products on the Maxa web site.

 

Edited May 11, 2023 by sharpener

[DanDee]

1 hour ago, sharpener said:

Can anyone tell me who makes the Viessman Vitocal 150-A high temperature range? As I recall the 100-A is made by Maxa but I can't find any R290/high temp products on the Maxa web site.

 

did you search for "maxa r290"?

[sharpener]

1 hour ago, DanDee said:

did you search for "maxa r290"?

 

The company history here says 2023 introduction of R290 but no product information on their website, however there is a catalogue released in ?March at the ISH fair in Frankfurt, domestic monobloc range covers 6 - 18kW in two frame sizes but I can't find a sales outlet anywhere, and @Post and beam wasn't able to either for the R32 models. Maybe they are supplying them as white-label to Viessmann.

[JohnMo]

I got my Maxa from eBay, the seller is linked below, they sold a couple on eBay and when I researched them they seem to be plumbing wholesale or similar - Beneath heat ltd, postcode CM15 0CH.

 

Postage labels were still on the package direct from manufacturer to them.  Do some digging contact direct.

 

 

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/usr/brownindustries2012?mkevt=1&mkpid=0&emsid=e11051.m44.l1181&mkcid=7&ch=osgood&euid=f18cb42d2e7649cf81f13c195cf0c5a6&bu=43030544433&osub=-1~1&crd=20230114082519&segname=11051

[sharpener]

Thanks for the pointer @JohnMo. You were fortunate, none on ebay now, Beneath Heat selling just a DHW tank. Their main business is UFH components, I suspect they use ebay to sell unwanted items bought for specific projects not as a general sales outlet. Would want to use a volume Maxa importer, for reasons of backup and warranty, but it seems there isn't one ATM.

 

So it seems this was a blind avenue. Still looking for something cheaper (and ideally less heavy!) than the Vaillaint Arotherm plus. Got someone coming to quote for that now, we shall see...

[JohnMo]

My second option was a Grant ASHP, can be had quite cheaply if willing to haggle a bit. I was quoted around £1700 for a 6kW one including VAT and delivery.

 

I would have installed more like for Chofu instructions than the Grant ones.

 

 

[sharpener]

Yes, the Grant/Chofu look easy to interface to my exising controls and would do everything I want except the flow temperature - because they are R32 not R290 - which unfortunately is the dealbreaker.

[JamesPa]

2 hours ago, sharpener said:

Yes, the Grant/Chofu look easy to interface to my exising controls and would do everything I want except the flow temperature - because they are R32 not R290 - which unfortunately is the dealbreaker.

I'm intrigued, because you seem to be following a similar thought pattern to me, as to what flow temp you are designing for and whether for dhw only or both dhw and ch.  

[JamesPa]

I'm wondering if you answered my question with "65C or 35C"?

 

Presumably 65C for DHW so you don't need to change the cylinder (and since it's probably only 10-15% of your total demand, who cares if the cop is only 2).  Is this your thought process?

[sharpener]

The solar immersion is set to 55 and now we have doubled the available PV to 7kW the heating coil is only used when there is a shortfall e.g. if we have visitors.

The oil boiler is set to 65C (its lowest setting) and the tank stat for the motorised valve set to 50 so that the PV has priority.

 

Both the above give an entirely adequate HW supply.

 

Over the years I have put extra rads in the master bedroom (undersized) and the living room (to get faster warmup) and with the boiler at 65 the output from the rads is now fine except for the landing where they are known to be rather small.

 

In the living room there is also UFH, which we do not use much now there are rads installed there. This might change with the HP, I have no idea what flow temp is really required as the mixing valve is currently stuck at full but yes 35C would be a reasonable guess.

 

I am expecting an "interesting" site visit from a Vaillant installer in 10 days time. Today we went through the "why do I need a new cylinder" ritual on the phone. He wants to restrict the flow temp to 55 "because the CoP is poor at higher temps". Their so called spec sheet doesn't have proper CoP information and not even the SCOP for temps over 55 so I don't know where this comes from. (The MCS rules state "4.2.5 When installing a domestic hot water cylinder to work with a heat pump, the heat pump shall be rated for 55oC",  I assume this is intended to be a minimum not a maximum.) As you point out the DHW is only a small fraction of the duty anyway. I see the installer has to agree the recovery time with the client, in my case 3 hours would be fine (i.e. an input of ~3 kW)

 

I want to have 65 available for the rads as well, though with WC it will not be needed most of the time, the 99% OAT for us is only -0.2C and the 99.6% is -1.6.

 

So I can see I will have to keep most of my thoughts to myself if I am going to get a quote out of them!