Rethinking the mindset for mass retrofit - a provocative idea

[JamesPa]

6 minutes ago, Dillsue said:

?? Anyone can install PV. You just need a spark to test site installed cabling

True, but you can't get paid export to the grid without mcs, I think (I  believe the providers have discretion over this, don't know if they exercise it, mine doesn't.

Edited May 2, 2023 by JamesPa

[JamesPa]

19 minutes ago, Dillsue said:

. It's a few hundred quid for a planning application

Yeah I know, I went down this route.  But if your LPA is anything like mine, and I hear that many are, they impose an expensive to demonstrate and in practice unachievable noise spec.

Edited May 2, 2023 by JamesPa

[markocosic]

1 minute ago, Dillsue said:

?? Anyone can install PV. You just need a spark to test site installed cabling

 

Nope - you're excluded from ALL export payments if it wasn't installed by an MCS union member - by their buddies over in the energy retail sector.

 

Unlike electrical wiring in the house there's no option for paying building control to inspect and sign off an existing installation either.

 

All of which fudges up the economics of the installation. 

 

To be fair the PV installation economics have reached the point were the PV itself is a loss leader and they're seeking to make up the margins on the batteries.

 

My brother accidentally secured a negotiating position by asking for 10 kWh with 10 kW charge/discharge rates alongside 10 kW(p) worth of panels. The monkeys quoted for 10 kWh; rocked up with the GivEnergy Shenzhen specials; and were invited to pop them back in the van as they were only rated for a 3.7 kW charge/discharge rate. A reasonable offer of "Install what you priced or scratch the battery off the quote and call it quits" was made. Turns out not so reasonable as there was literally zero margin applied to the PV element of the installation.

 

I do wonder if Octopus et al will make similar decisions in heat pumps. Get them a heat pump on a finance / rental scheme; do all the donkey work up front at an attractive cost; and hope that they're perpetually too broke to buy out the installation or quit the lease at the earliest opportunity and hook up their own unit...

[Dillsue]

1 minute ago, JamesPa said:

True, but you can't export to the grid without mcs, I think.

Thats wrong. You cant power up or connect to the grid til your spark has tested and certified the cabling. Absolutely no mandatory MCS involvement

[JamesPa]

3 minutes ago, Dillsue said:

Thats wrong. You cant power up or connect to the grid til your spark has tested and certified the cabling. Absolutely no mandatory MCS involvement

Fair enough, no export payments though as @markocosicpoints out, which murders the economics.

Edited May 2, 2023 by JamesPa

[Dillsue]

3 minutes ago, markocosic said:

 

Nope - you're excluded from ALL export payments if it wasn't installed by an MCS union member - by their buddies over in the energy retail sector.

That's correct, IF you choose to get export payments. If you dont want export payments then no MCS needed for PV install.

[JamesPa]

5 minutes ago, markocosic said:

I do wonder if Octopus et al will make similar decisions in heat pumps. Get them a heat pump on a finance / rental scheme; do all the donkey work up front at an attractive cost; and hope that they're perpetually too broke to buy out the installation or quit the lease at the earliest opportunity and hook up their own unit...

I had the same thought.  Annuity revenues, lovely for those who are capital-rich and perpetual poverty for everyone else.  It's the way the world is going though.

[JamesPa]

3 minutes ago, Dillsue said:

That's correct, IF you choose to get export payments. If you dont want export payments then no MCS needed for PV install.

Thereby driving up the market for batteries which are environmentally hostile, at least for now.  

[Dillsue]

2 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

Fair enough, no export payments though as @markocosicpoints out, which murders the economics

What are you basing that on? Our systems are doing just fine

[JamesPa]

Just now, Dillsue said:

What are you basing that on? Our systems are doing just fine

What am I basing what on, no export payments or murders the economics?

[Dillsue]

8 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

Thereby driving up the market for batteries which are environmentally hostile, at least for now.  

We don't have batteries. Just because you can't get export payments doesn't automatically mean youll get batteries.

[Dillsue]

6 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

What am I basing what on, no export payments or murders the economics?

Murdering the economics.

[RichardL]

There's something needs to iron out on the economics and standards.

If the DNO is happy with electrical standards for connection to the grid then the power companies should be also.

My guess is the MCS thing is a smokescreen, power companies don't really want to pay for excess power, they're setup to sell products not buy them - once that changes MCS as a requirement for export payments will fade away.

The power firms, retail, need to see buying micro generated power as a carrot rather than a stick.

[JamesPa]

20 minutes ago, Dillsue said:

We don't have batteries. Just because you can't get export payments doesn't automatically mean youll get batteries 

I said it increases the incentive, not that its automatic. 

 

The only point I'm making here is that years after subsidies disappeared mcs still have significant control over the pv market because of the export payments, just as they do over heat pumps, even ignoring subsidies, because of PD.  @markocosicwas envisaging a time when their control of heat pumps became irrelevant because the subsidy gravy train comes to an end, and I was speculating that,  based on solar pv, I wouldn't be so confident.  Personally I wish mcs would go up in a puff of smoke tomorrow because they cause me nothing but grief,  but that's not going to happen. 

 

My comment about murdering the economics was a bit over stated, but the export tariff does help with the economics.  I get 15p per kWh for exporting about half my production and thats a useful incentive.

Edited May 2, 2023 by JamesPa

[SteamyTea]

3 minutes ago, RichardL said:

power companies don't really want to pay for excess power, they're setup to sell products not buy them

Not sure that is right.

Supermarkets sell milk, they often buy it in cheaper than the direct manufacturing/processing cost of the producer.

 

[JamesPa]

7 minutes ago, RichardL said:

My guess is the MCS thing is a smokescreen, power companies don't really want to pay for excess power, they're setup to sell products not buy them - once that changes MCS as a requirement for export payments will fade away.

I guess the question is, why did the government build mcs into seg (thus giving the energy companies the opportunity to hide behind it).  Someone is still pulling strings even though subsidies have disappeared.

Edited May 2, 2023 by JamesPa

[SteamyTea]

9 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

I guess the question is, why did the government build mcs into seg (thus giving the energy companies the opportunity to hide behind it).  Someone is still pulling strings even though subsidies have disappeared.

Ah

Hanlon's Razor.

 

[markocosic]

58 minutes ago, Dillsue said:

That's correct, IF you choose to get export payments. If you dont want export payments then no MCS needed for PV install.

 

Which effectively means you cannot justify any meaningful investment without MCS. 

 

Yes you can pay a little extra planning taxa and not get grant for heat pumps. Unreasonable but probably not a deal breaker.

 

Preventing receipt of export payments by ANY measure (not even the option of paying a small planning tax to legitimise the install somehow) is a proper swindle.

 

(I have a sub £1000 DNO notified but non MCS install FWIW, and spill the excess. I'd be happy to "waste money" on more PV beyond the very basic if there were some option for economic recovery; but it's not viable without export and MCS installers fees have become too juicy since the Ukraine invasion to justify the hired in labour)

Edited May 2, 2023 by markocosic

[JamesPa]

1 minute ago, markocosic said:

 

Which effectively means you cannot justify any meaningful investment without MCS. 

 

Yes you can pay a little extra planning taxa and not get grant for heat pumps. Unreasonable but probably not a deal breaker.

 

Preventing receipt of export payments by ANY measure (not even the option of paying a small planning tax to legitimise the install somehow) is a proper swindle.

Unfortunately paying the planning fee might not be enough.  If your LPA is anything like mine, and I hear that many are, they impose an expensive to demonstrate and in practice unachievable noise spec if you seek express consent.  9 months downstream I'm still fighting it.  Others would give up.

[DougMLancs]

Just as a note- MCS don’t have a monopoly on export payments. SSE, OVO, E-ON, Scottish Power and British Gas all accept Flexi-Orb certification as an alternative to MCS. Octopus don’t accept it at the moment though so it’s no good for getting a top export rate.

[JamesPa]

26 minutes ago, DougMLancs said:

Just as a note- MCS don’t have a monopoly on export payments. SSE, OVO, E-ON, Scottish Power and British Gas all accept Flexi-Orb certification as an alternative to MCS. Octopus don’t accept it at the moment though so it’s no good for getting a top export rate.

Good to know, thanks. 

 

I really don't get why any additional certification (beyond what the DNO accepts) is needed.  Payments are based on metered figures after all so why does anyone care provided that the DNO is happy.  Bizarre unless I'm missing something..

Edited May 2, 2023 by JamesPa

[sharpener]

48 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

Good to know, thanks. 

 

I really don't get why any additional certification (beyond what the DNO accepts) is needed.  Payments are based on metered figures after all so why does anyone care provided that the DNO is happy.  Bizarre unless I'm missing something..

 

Yes it's a nonsense. While it is understandable that the DNO should have a say because they have legitimate concerns e.g. if you export more than your license you might push the voltage too high*, my experience and quite a few others over at https://camelot-forum.co.uk/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=11 is that they are happy with DIY installs of both panels and batteries. In which case if the technical standards are met why should the companies trading in the power care who installed the means of production.

 

* Have never understood why they are concerned about me suddenly supplying more than 3.68 kW yet do not care (or even know) if I turn off an electric shower drawing 9.5.

[markocosic]

2 hours ago, DougMLancs said:

Just as a note- MCS don’t have a monopoly on export payments. SSE, OVO, E-ON, Scottish Power and British Gas all accept Flexi-Orb certification as an alternative to MCS. Octopus don’t accept it at the moment though so it’s no good for getting a top export rate.

 

Good to know; thanks!

 

Unclear why either are required of course; but a duopoly is preferable to a monopoly.

[markocosic]

1 hour ago, sharpener said:

Have never understood why they are concerned about me suddenly supplying more than 3.68 kW yet do not care (or even know) if I turn off an electric shower drawing 9.5.

 

Duration of the load.

 

Electric showers are unlikely to run for hours at a time all at the same time. In aggregate they're "meh" at the substation; and it's the in aggregate part that matters.

 

Unlike PV export or EV import. 

 

EVs at 7.2 kW apiece are going to be a swine for them. Won't take many to jeopardize substations. Lots.of illegal installations (strictly speaking notification and express consent is required for new equipment over 16A/phase; and as you say they've no clue where it's installed... probably no visibility over meter data either...)

 

PV is next up at 3.6 kW apiece.

 

Heat pumps at (typically) less than 3.6 kW apiece are the least concerning of the "new age" equipment being connected.

[markocosic]

2 hours ago, JamesPa said:

Payments are based on metered figures after all so why does anyone care provided that the DNO is happy.  Bizarre unless I'm missing something

 

I suspect it's because they're selling your PV onwards as "green" electricity and want plausible deniability that it's green.

 

Battery only? That's not green. You're reselling what's already been claimed as green when it was sold to you.

 

PV only? Great that's green.

 

PV and battery? Perfect. We'll claim that all export is green because we say that you should only export your own generation but we know full well that you're "electricity laundering" by importing electricity and the re-exporting it with a plausibly green tag attached.

 

I suspect. On the basis of PV being necessary rather than just a battery.

 

Octopus never had the decency to answer me when I asked why MCS was necessary given that government explicitly says that it's their decision what to require for the SEG.