How not to market heat pumps

[sharpener]

As a Good Energy customer for my 2011 FIT installation they sent me an email today. It says

 

Our engineers are already installing heat pumps in your area!

 

They already have quite a lot of information about me in their database. So I click on the link in the message which takes me to their online estimating form. The first question is my address, which they already know. The rest of it is quite detailed, existing heating type, sq m, insulation and d/g, # of bedrooms, # of baths, # of showers. So far so good, I click on Continue.

 

The wizard recommends a 16kW Midea M Thermal which is probably about right, "Continuous water supply temperature, 60°C even as low as -20°C" sounds good, installed with Magnafilter for £10582 inc VAT less the £5000 BUS grant. It says the 250l cylinder is optional for £2128 but warns that heatup may be slow without a new one. The Tado controller I decline for another £706. They guess I will need a typical 4 radiator upgrade for £1152 which sounds reasonable vfm so I tick that, bottom line is £6734 which is the best offer I have had on my house and I have been able to opt out of all the things I don't want. Conditional on a Zoom survey for £50.

 

One click more to download the whole thing and BOOM!

We are not installing in your area...yet

Unfortunately this means we cannot progress your enquiry at this time. We are growing the team and as soon as we can install in your area we will email you to let you know.

 

So what is their business model? They knew my address to begin with. So are there any areas where they are installing yet? Is it a fishing expedition to find out where best to deploy their limited resources? Or are they merely harvesting my data for a leads database which they are then going to auction to the highest bidder? (Though detailing Midea seems a bit specific for that.)

 

Answers on a postcard please...

 

 

[RichardL]

I suspect the customer is the installer and they're trying to produce a ready made market,  you are just the bait.

[JamesPa]

I also have recent experience with Good Energy.  Based on a form-fill and telephone discussion they estimated about £5-8K after grant (I cant remember the exact figure) for a 12kW Midea, likewise the best offer I have had.  I did pijnt out to them (in writing) that it wouldn't meet the permitted development noise spec, but they said that they might be able to find a work-around.  They then (rather generously I felt) offered to do a full survey free of charge, which I accepted. Following the survey (which took 2.5 hours, appeared to be thorough, and was done by a very nice lady) I received a quote for £K25 (before the BUS) covering the installation of 2 12kW Midea pumps (total 24kW) plus six rad replacements, designed to run at a LWT of 55C. 

 

Their calculation of the demand was a little over 16kW.  In fairness another organisation, who I had paid earlier to do a survey, came out with about the same figure.  That other organisation (from whom I requested details of the calculations) ignored the upgrades to insulation from the original solid walls/better wall construction for extensions, and also sundry other improvements.  They also counted losses from one room to another but not gains, double counting about 1kW.  I can only presume Good Energy did something similar, but don't have the detail of their calculations.  I made a very specific point of telling both surveyors about the upgrades.

 

If I use the MCS assumptions, take into account the upgrades, and of course subtract out the double counting, the calculation yields about 11kW.  During the long cold spell at -2 in November (I live in the South East so this is the typical design temp) I actually measured a consistent 7.5kW.

 

If I were to sign up to the Good Energy offer within 30 days, and pay a 25% deposit, I get a discount of £1750.   My wife is worried, as she fears that the survey was for purposes other than heat pump installation (for the avoidance of doubt I am not making any allegations).

 

I'm really not sure what to make of this, why do a full survey for free and then make a silly proposal, unless they need cash quickly and hope to get some deposits in by playing a numbers game.

[sharpener]

I agree, sounds daft, they do quite a good job of the fact-finding and survey and then come up with a proposition that is commercial nonsense. (Hence my earlier comment about banana boats.) Two heat pumps is in any case not permitted development whatever the noise level.

 

Part of the explanation may be that the surveyors seem to be mostly self-employed sub-contractors who have no skin in the game provided their fees are paid by one party or the other.

 

Can't find any retail prices or detailed specs or performance figures/graphs of Midea units for comparison. My concern would also be that the sole importer is claimed to be Freedom who have form for poor recommendations regarding buffers with Samsung HPs. No mention of a buffer with the Midea though, maybe they have better turn-down. @markocosic probably knows.

 

Am still waiting for a Daikin HT quote from an installer highly recommended by ther distributors, but worry that the indoor unit has a 6kW inline heater in it, IIRC this will cause the DNO to suck their teeth and/or require an upgrade to 100A supply (which would be really disruptive because it would need new (25mm^2) meter tails through a very thick stone wall with other cables embedded in it).

 

Scottish Power who are my supplier also invite HP enquiries but similarly don't have installers in Devon. They too know my address already so what is point?

 

I am beginning to think it is like last year where I started looking for more PV in May and after contacting 20+ installers finally got 8 panels put up in November. Difference here is it is only April but OTOH no way am I having anyone disconnecting the oil boiler after 1st October.

[JamesPa]

I have, sadly, been at this for over 18 months now.  Given the big discrepancy between calculated load (11kW) and measured (7.5kW), I may yet delay until next year to get another winter's worth of data.  Unfortunately my smart meter stopped communicating during the November cold spell so, whilst I was diligent in checking the readings frequently, I don't have any for the middle of the night.  Also I don't seem to get anything like a linear relationship between degree-days and consumption (I don't have real time temperature monitoring so am reliant on local degree-day reports).  This obviously makes me suspect readings.  

 

The plus point is that, over this time, I think I have developed a much better understanding, will be better prepared, and have worked out what I don't need to do (or at worst can leave out initially and retrofit only if there is a problem) notwithstanding the industry insistence..  I have also narrowed the choice down to three units, the 11.2kW Mitsubishi, the 12kW Samsung HT or the 9kW LG.  The latter, whilst well priced and seemingly well featured, a risk however.  There little margin on capacity and so depends on my measurements being accurate and in addition there is a very relevant inconsistency in the spec (which I have asked LG about and am awaiting a response).

[markocosic]

Midea are a huge manufacturer.

 

The units are made to a repeatable standard and they have a European presence. They're not like phinx et al shipping sketchy assemblies by the container.

 

The monoblocs on offer won't set your pants on fire for flexibility in operation or efficiency in operation though. On the flip side they're cheaper than fish and chips.

 

Good Energy are doing the same bait and switch lead generation based on false pretences game as British Gas / Centrica were here by the looks of it. Available in the middle of nowhere at half past never only.

 

 

[JamesPa]

34 minutes ago, markocosic said:

On the flip side they're cheaper than fish and chips.

If I ate the amount off fish and chips I could get for the 25K I was quoted for 2x12kW installed plus 6 rad swap outs, I would likely die of a coronary!

 

But I guess that this is mostly installation costs not the units themselves.

[DanDee]

2 hours ago, JamesPa said:

If I ate the amount off fish and chips I could get for the 25K I was quoted for 2x12kW installed plus 6 rad swap outs, I would likely die of a coronary!

 

But I guess that this is mostly installation costs not the units themselves.

have you tried any of the hp installers with youtube presence? Urban Plumbers, Dore Woodman

[JamesPa]

1 hour ago, DanDee said:

have you tried any of the hp installers with youtube presence? Urban Plumbers, Dore Woodman

Neither of those seem to serve my area (Herts/Essex borders).  I have tried every MCS registered organisation within 15 miles, and many beyond, but admittedly none that do not claim to work either in my area or nationwide.  

[sharpener]

22 hours ago, markocosic said:

 

Good Energy are doing the same bait and switch lead generation based on false pretences game as British Gas / Centrica were here by the looks of it. Available in the middle of nowhere at half past never only.

 

 

 

So having been on the receiving end of the "bait" part of the tactic, what do I expect to get in the future as the "switch" element?

 

I still don't understand their business model. Perhaps they don't either, although IIRC the founder of Good Energy seems to have something of a reputation as a businesswoman.

[RichardL]

1 hour ago, sharpener said:

don't understand their business model

They're selling ready made groups/creating a market place of interested customers to sell to installers.

You're not the customer in this one.

You are the product.

Edited April 22, 2023 by RichardL

[markocosic]

18 minutes ago, RichardL said:

You are the product.

 

Exactly!

 

Fake install price offer bait. Switch to offering to allow you to become the product.

[sharpener]

8 hours ago, RichardL said:

They're selling ready made groups/creating a market place of interested customers to sell to installers.

You're not the customer in this one.

You are the product.

 

As I wrote upthread <Or are they merely harvesting my data for a leads database which they are then going to auction to the highest bidder?>

[MikeSharp01]

7 hours ago, sharpener said:

<Or are they merely harvesting my data for a leads database which they are then going to auction to the highest bidder?>

Seems that way does it not. Given the discussions here across a large number of threads the ASHP silver bullet seems to be alchemically altered to runny stuff when it comes into contact with the retrofit challenge across the technical, commercial & environmental dimensions.

[sharpener]

Well they have chased up the quote today and tell me that they defo can install in my area (SW) and it is the web site that needs updating. From the practical nature of the conversation I sense I am dealing with the organisation that will actually do the job, not sell on the lead.

 

It seems that last December, Good Energy bought Igloo Works for £1.75M as reported here ?from the ashes of Igloo Energy Supply which went bust in 2021, and have renamed it Good Energy Works Ltd.

 

Apparently I need an EPC before they will do the survey in case it recommends loft insulation (which I have in abundance) or cavity wall insulation (which I can't, having no cavities). Funnily enough they can recommend an EPC company, PropCert.

 

The background material they sent includes the statement that they have as of February done over 80 installs which does not sound a great number for a national company. It also appears that Midea HPs require 300mm clear space behind them, which is twice what some others need and seems a lot for a unit only 410mm deep itself.

 

Anyone got proper technical specs for the Midea M Thermal Arctic range? They are suggesting the MHC-V16 with an SCOP of 3.59 at 50C, what is its maximum flow temp?

 

Am still pursuing alternative options with Octopus (not in my area yet) and a Daikin HT installer (local but slow to get back to me).

 

 

[JamesPa]

50 minutes ago, sharpener said:

Well they have chased up the quote today and tell me that they defo can install in my area (SW) and it is the web site that needs updating. From the practical nature of the conversation I sense I am dealing with the organisation that will actually do the job, not sell on the lead.

 

It seems that last December, Good Energy bought Igloo Works for £1.75M as reported here ?from the ashes of Igloo Energy Supply which went bust in 2021, and have renamed it Good Energy Works Ltd.

 

Apparently I need an EPC before they will do the survey in case it recommends loft insulation (which I have in abundance) or cavity wall insulation (which I can't, having no cavities). Funnily enough they can recommend an EPC company, PropCert.

 

The background material they sent includes the statement that they have as of February done over 80 installs which does not sound a great number for a national company. It also appears that Midea HPs require 300mm clear space behind them, which is twice what some others need and seems a lot for a unit only 410mm deep itself.

 

Anyone got proper technical specs for the Midea M Thermal Arctic range? They are suggesting the MHC-V16 with an SCOP of 3.59 at 50C, what is its maximum flow temp?

 

Am still pursuing alternative options with Octopus (not in my area yet) and a Daikin HT installer (local but slow to get back to me).

 

 

I have the Midea spec but it is too large to post here.  However I got it from this post https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/postid/18936

 

Good Energy also told me I needed an EPC before they would do the survey.  I just ignored this (so didn't get one) and they did the survey anyway.  After recommending a 12kW Midea during the phone conversation and email exchange, post survey it became 2x12kW, comments on my 'journey' and why I regard this quote as silly upthread.  I hope you have better luck, perhaps they just decided they didn't like 'my' installation so did a silly quote.

[sharpener]

Thanks, eventually found it here, very informative.

 

They have suggested the 16kW model to me but I see it can only provide a 65C LWT over the range 5C < OAT < 15C.  With a LWT of 60 and an OAT of 0C the o/p is only 9359W, CoP is 1.72(!) and I wonder if these will be sufficient. In practice if below zero we would fire up the wood-burner but IIRC that is not allowed for MCS calcs. Maybe I should ask for a design temp of 0C as we are on the coast in the SW and it rarely goes below freezing as this table shows.

 

Also the turn-down ratio is disappointing, only about 1.6 over much of the operating range. Maybe this explains why the diagrams all show a four-port "balance tank" and secondary pump, I will ask about that as they are not included in the quote. The diagrams also show a blending valve used to drop the temp to the UFH if you have rads as well, but since I will have them on at different times this is not a good arrangement. (I already have a blending valve but it seems to be stuck in the full flow zero bypass position. However the floor never gets very hot, balancing the flow in the loops is difficult because the valves clag up).

 

 

 

[markocosic]

Safe to say the datasheet didn't set your pants on fire then @sharpener? 😂

 

 

It's cheaper than fish and chips.

 

The upfront saving by fitting one of these isn't worth it if you intend to be the on paying the bills later though.

 

From which you can deduce that any other advice from this company is not going to be in your best interests either.

 

 

You really don't want to be pushing these units much above 50C flow temp if you're the one paying the bills; and max output is indeed 12.5 kW at A-2/W50.

 

Minimum output of 7 kW @ A7W35 may be tolerable without a volumiser / header arrangement IF your system is sufficiently open. Your having them "on at different times" is a red flag for that though.

 

Setup something like the attached to see what the output of the various zones and the flowrates that would result are?

 

 

IIRC MCS won't allow the design temp to be changed but you can change the ventilation assumptions and operative room temperature assumptions if you like.

 

I'd be looking for an installer giving some consideration to the operating cost though. Unless feeding UFH only (and with large space heat load relative to hot water load) you'll not do too well with an inflexible low temp heat pump.

Knoll Pipe Calcs.xlsx

[sharpener]

Trying to make more progress I have booked the EPC survey now and contacted GE again.

 

GE won't refund their own survey fee if I cancel because the EPC recommends cavity wall or additional loft insulation. They helpfully(!) add that the current standard for loft insulation is 270mm.

 

I suppose mine is 150 - 200mm, but because the loft now has MVHR ducting running all over it it would be a complete pain to fit more, and I doubt it would provde worthwhile savings given the barn conversion has solid stone walls anyway.

 

So two questions spring to mind about the EPC survey:

 

Do I get any credit for the MVHR system?

 

How do I discourage the surveyor from making an adverse finding that will disqualify me from the BUS grant?

[JohnMo]

You should get a credit and debit for the MVHR on an EPC. It should take the manufacturer declared efficiency, specific fan power, duct type etc all into account.

 

You then get a revised down ventilation heat loss and a revised uplift in electric usage based on the specific fan power.

[JamesPa]

9 minutes ago, sharpener said:

Trying to make more progress I have booked the EPC survey now and contacted GE again.

 

GE won't refund their own survey fee if I cancel because the EPC recommends cavity wall or additional loft insulation. They helpfully(!) add that the current standard for loft insulation is 270mm.

 

I suppose mine is 150 - 200mm, but because the loft now has MVHR ducting running all over it it would be a complete pain to fit more, and I doubt it would provde worthwhile savings given the barn conversion has solid stone walls anyway.

 

So two questions spring to mind about the EPC survey:

 

Do I get any credit for the MVHR system?

 

How do I discourage the surveyor from making an adverse finding that will disqualify me from the BUS grant?

Interesting that they are charging you, they did mine for free.

[sharpener]

On 21/04/2023 at 09:19, JamesPa said:

I did pijnt out to them (in writing) that it wouldn't meet the permitted development noise spec, but they said that they might be able to find a work-around.  They then (rather generously I felt) offered to do a full survey free of charge, which I accepted.

 

Yes I read that but I wasn't expecting the same treatment. The GE site survey is now £50 virtual or £100 on-site. However the main issue AIUI is that you need an EPC that doesn't recommend loft insulation in order to get the BUS money. Am wondering about topping up the areas near the loft hatches(!), the whole loft is 100 sq m and because of the c1840 roof truss design much of it is not readily accessible.