Securing wall-hung toilet to stud wall

[jayc89]

I'm internally insulating our house; solid brick wall, PIR, battens through. The floor is screeded with UFH, so no mechanical fixings down there.

 

I'm planning on fitting a Geberit frame to an outside wall, the soil pipe will run straight out the back, and I have a couple of 40mm waste pipes to connect via boss straps too. The 40mm pipes will come from both left and right of the stud work I need to build for the toilet frame, so I assume I'll need to notch it out. Rudimentary diagram;

 

 

Notching a 4x2 stud wall out by 40mm (nearly 50%) doesn't seem right. Should I bring the stud work out 50mm to allow the waste pipes to run behind (I.e. use 6x2 head and sole plates and 4x2 studs flush with the front)? Will the stud work mechanically fixed to the external wall on the left, returning stud wall on the right and the ceiling joists and glued to the floor above be enough?

Any better ideas?

[Temp]

Where is the cistern going?  The geberit frame with cistern need more than 4" depth. Looks like min 195mm but check the model you are using.  

Drilling 40-50mm holes in say 205mm studs no problem. Even in 100mm would probably be ok. You could always double up the thickness.

 

There are typically two long bolts/threaded rods that fix the top of the frame to the wall. Ideally these should fix to the blockwork (or a substantial bit of timber fixed to the blockwork) as they carry some load. There are adjustable feet at the bottom that you need to set to the right height and fix securely. Height not too critical for a wall hung but more so for floor mounted back to the wall type pan.   

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by Temp

[Nickfromwales]

Just double up the studs that you need to drill through, and you can stay at 4"  

They do one which goes into a 100mm stud wall  

 

https://www.victorianplumbing.co.uk/geberit-slimline-114cm-wall-hung-wc-frame-with-sigma-8cm-cistern

 

Cheaper elsewhere.

[Nickfromwales]

FYI, I bond the vertical 4x2's to the frame and drill into the metal ( long 3mm pilot drill ) so the frame supports the timber and vice versa. By the time you combine this, drilling 40mm holes low down in the stud isn't ever a problem ( drill dead centre ). @jayc89, Why not exit the building with the 2x 40mm pipes before you strike the 2 x 4x2's closest to the frame? Then boss them onto the soil pipe externally ( if not too 'ugly' / in plain sight )?

[Mr Punter]

The soil pipe from the Geberit is 90mm so you need to fiddle about to adapt it to your 110mm.

[jayc89]

@NickfromwalesI got this one - https://www.plumb2u.com/geberit-1120mm-duofix-frame-delta-concealed-cistern-and-delta30-flush-plate-458119212-c2x39344840 - cheapest I could find. Will that cause me problems in a 4" stud frame? I could route the 40mm pipes externally, I was trying to avoid making multiple external holes that I need to make airtight again etc. 

 

@Mr Punter, I thought it comes with an 90 degree adaptor that converts from 90 to 110 (which in itself will be a PITA as I was hoping to go straight out the back, no bends)...

[Nickfromwales]

21 minutes ago, jayc89 said:

@NickfromwalesI got this one - https://www.plumb2u.com/geberit-1120mm-duofix-frame-delta-concealed-cistern-and-delta30-flush-plate-458119212-c2x39344840 - cheapest I could find. Will that cause me problems in a 4" stud frame? I could route the 40mm pipes externally, I was trying to avoid making multiple external holes that I need to make airtight again etc. 

 

@Mr Punter, I thought it comes with an 90 degree adaptor that converts from 90 to 110 (which in itself will be a PITA as I was hoping to go straight out the back, no bends)...

Says 12cm depth, so yup, you're into a bigger stud I'm afraid. Or send it back.

 

You just bin the Geberit stuff and put a normal pan connector onto the pan  

[jayc89]

30 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Says 12cm depth, so yup, you're into a bigger stud I'm afraid. Or send it back.

 

You just bin the Geberit stuff and put a normal pan connector onto the pan  

 

Great

Something like this? https://www.wickes.co.uk/FloPlast-Soil-Pan-Straight-Extension-Pipe---White/p/431974

[Nickfromwales]

22 hours ago, jayc89 said:

 

Great

Something like this? https://www.wickes.co.uk/FloPlast-Soil-Pan-Straight-Extension-Pipe---White/p/431974

Nope. That’s a pan connector extension. 
 

Just a straight pan connector. 
 

Hold the front page. Geberit make a straight one

 

https://www.tapsempire.co.uk/product/geberit-monolith-straight-pipe-connector-for-floor-wc/?gclid=CjwKCAjw5pShBhB_EiwAvmnNV3nTvu4cVTIgpW6WSJfTBxqPyKD9TiAFYoMD664__4P-EN6nxCQ_xRoC03QQAvD_BwE

 

Just email the supplier / manufacturer to check it clicks into the captive / locking clip on the frame, and job done. 

[jayc89]

1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said:

Nope. That’s a pan connector extension. 
 

Just a straight pan connector. 
 

Hold the front page. Geberit make a straight one

 

https://www.tapsempire.co.uk/product/geberit-monolith-straight-pipe-connector-for-floor-wc/?gclid=CjwKCAjw5pShBhB_EiwAvmnNV3nTvu4cVTIgpW6WSJfTBxqPyKD9TiAFYoMD664__4P-EN6nxCQ_xRoC03QQAvD_BwE

 

Just email the supplier / manufacturer to check it clicks into the captive / locking clip on the frame, and job done. 

 

Nice. Followed by some sort of 90mm/110mm adapter to connect to standard 110mm soil pipe?

[Nickfromwales]

2 hours ago, jayc89 said:

 

Nice. Followed by some sort of 90mm/110mm adapter to connect to standard 110mm soil pipe?

You use the one that gets sent with the bent one, that you'll get as part of the original frame + gubbings  Just bin ( or eBay the rest )  

[jayc89]

Here's where I'm at;

 

The 2x4 behind it is just sitting loose currently, that + the existing 2x1 on the wall gives me enough of a void to fit the frame to. 

 

UFH below, so can't screw down, PIR behind, so the 80mm fixings supplied aren't long enough. I'm thinking;

 

- Glue the 2x4 to the floor, fit the frame on top of that, screwing into the wood, not the screed

- Either;

- - Buy longer fixings and go straight through the PIR into the brick behind

- - 2x4 behind the frame, secured through the brick using concrete screws and then secure the frame fixings to the timber

 

What do you think would be best?

[Temp]

When you sit on it the forces push the bottom of the frame down and backwards. The top of the frame gets pulled away from the wall. 

 

So i braced the bottom 2x4 against the wall with some timber running front to back. Just screwed the frame down into the 2x4 with coach screws I think.

 

We had a bit more space in the cavity than you. At the top we have timber fixed to the block wall with quite a few fasteners. Then "bolts" made from studding act as stand offs for the frame. These bolts were put through recessed holes in the timber before it was fixed to the wall. Then we used nuts to set the distance from the wall to back of frame and more to secure the frame.  So 4 nuts on each "bolt" if that makes sense.

 

Either side of the frame we have vertical 2x4 With screws through the frame into that. This 2x4 had to be notched to clear our 110 pipe which runs left right. 

 

 

[jayc89]

Frame's in. I have a new found hatred for soil pipes. 

[Nickfromwales]

2 hours ago, jayc89 said:

Frame's in. I have a new found hatred for soil pipes. 

Welcome to the team.

 

"What doesn't kill you".......

 

I've done 30 years of this, so suck it up and enjoy.  

[markocosic]

On 29/03/2023 at 17:17, Nickfromwales said:

FYI, I bond the vertical 4x2's to the frame and drill into the metal ( long 3mm pilot drill ) so the frame supports the timber and vice versa.

 

Good shout - thanks for the tip!

[Nickfromwales]

1 hour ago, markocosic said:

 

Good shout - thanks for the tip!

👍

 

Don't drill into the plastic components  They're tight to the frame in places!

[jayc89]

10 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

👍

 

Don't drill into the plastic components  They're tight to the frame in places!

 

Presumably you remove the cistern to get a couple of holes through the frame in the top half?

 

Looking at pans, all the ones I've seen so far, use rods in the frame at 180mm centres. Is that a fair assumption to make, or do I need to physically have the pan to confirm that before wall boarding?

[Nickfromwales]

2 hours ago, jayc89 said:

 

Presumably you remove the cistern to get a couple of holes through the frame in the top half?

 

Looking at pans, all the ones I've seen so far, use rods in the frame at 180mm centres. Is that a fair assumption to make, or do I need to physically have the pan to confirm that before wall boarding?

I always elongate the slots to leave both thread holes exposed. They’re both covered by any pan, regardless. 

[Nickfromwales]

4 hours ago, jayc89 said:

Presumably you remove the cistern to get a couple of holes through the frame in the top half?

Yes, sorry. I use the few holes they provide for initial fix, to clamp the timber > Sikaflex > metal sandwich together. 
Get things plumb, and then blast a few more in ( where they need pilot holes making ) for belt and braces. 

[jayc89]

According to the instructions I should have one of these;

 

 

But it's missing from the box. I've emailed the company I bought it from but it was over a month ago now...

Can I get a spare from anywhere? I don't even know what they're called to try Google!

[Nickfromwales]

17 minutes ago, jayc89 said:

According to the instructions I should have one of these;

 

 

But it's missing from the box. I've emailed the company I bought it from but it was over a month ago now...

Can I get a spare from anywhere? I don't even know what they're called to try Google!

What frame  / model? 

 

https://www.showerspares.com/search/geberit-9cm-protection-box-240.931.00.1/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=surfaces&utm_campaign=shopping feed&utm_content=free google shopping clicks&gclid=Cj0KCQjwi46iBhDyARIsAE3nVrYuYCRsqQC422VDDhdW9UYlzxTPXXnsZy7akntDKVje6Vgoh4WsuWQaAgq6EALw_wcB
 

Check frame type vs product.   

 

It’s normally loose in the cardboard packaging box, wrapped in cellophane, and used as a box to keep the loose components in one place. 
Check again?

[jayc89]

It's the Delta cistern (458.119.21.2) https://www.plumb2u.com/geberit-1120mm-duofix-frame-delta-concealed-cistern-and-delta30-flush-plate-458119212-c2x39344840

 

Certainly not in the packaging. I have the 2x screws and washers to attach the box with, just no box!

[Nickfromwales]

11 hours ago, jayc89 said:

It's the Delta cistern (458.119.21.2) https://www.plumb2u.com/geberit-1120mm-duofix-frame-delta-concealed-cistern-and-delta30-flush-plate-458119212-c2x39344840

 

Certainly not in the packaging. I have the 2x screws and washers to attach the box with, just no box!

Ring and complain! Get it sent to you directly or to the store.

[jayc89]

Replacement arrived yesterday. Fitted today. Instruction suggest should self-tapping screws should be driven through the PB into the frame, but it didn't come with any.

 

Are these required? If so, should I get something like these - https://www.screwfix.com/p/easydrive-phillips-double-countersunk-wing-screws-5-5-x-40mm-100-pack/16748?tc=AA3&ds_rl=1249413&gclid=CjwKCAjwuqiiBhBtEiwATgvixOWM31htMa9TgfyKOeJqjYWMu3ThUk2szszpUAHbnhPEPdGLDTl5sxoC1CkQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds ?